COVID-19 Vaccine Talk, 2nd Dose

[Sylvanfan]

I had the Astra Zeneca first dose, and Pfizer as a second dose too so I have been trying to keep an eye on if that would restrict any further travel. So that post is really helpful for me.

I was fortunate enough to have no real side effects from either dose. I would be willing to get a third dose. I almost ran out and did it when they first offered it, but the idea of getting a third dose to potentially permit travel that I have no plans made me stop and decide to hold off. I'm not entirely clear if they will recommend it for the entire population, and what the recommendation for timelines between doses will be.

It's a fluid situation and every day provides a bit more data then what they had before. I can certainly hold off until 6 months after my 2nd dose if need be and longer than that. Hopefully it will be better defined if a third dose is helping provide better protection for the broader population and some clearer guidelines for timeline between the second and third dose. That said had I booked a ticket to Vegas or something in July to go to a Football game this month...I'd have that extra shot in me.

[looooob]

not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere- if so apologies but interestingly Alberta snuck past Manitoba again yesterday in the percent population with a single dose of vaccine


now a few obvious points here
1. the margin is slim, and the impact is not measurable at this point given that this is now based on very recent (and therefore not fully baked in ) doses
2. the gap in fully vaccinated/2nd doses remains vast in favour of MB





anyways Alberta and Manitoba historically had been pretty close (or Alberta ahead) on vaccinations, then our premier declared COVID over , while Manitoba was mired in a brutal 3rd wave and their vaccinations kept on shooting up. is interesting to see these trends maybe narrowing (and no it is not thanks to the Kenney pennies)

[curves2000]

I really wonder if the federal government and the provinces can make a little headway with vaccinations by promoting the viral vector vaccines like J&J and AZ for that last few percentage of people who may be willing to take the shot.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...west-1.5607529

I know in the recent AB press conference Kenney indicated that they are looking at using the J&J shot for some people who prefer it. It's a one shot vaccine and it's effectiveness is very high.

When the vaccines were being developed and being first launched, the fear for some people was that the MRNA vaccines were "rushed" "new technology" Than there was the instances of very rare blood clots with AZ and than J&J and the narrative shifted. People didn't want these vaccines and the media kept hammering away on the issue as well.

There is still a supply of AZ in Alberta and if we can make the message known, we may be able to get a lot of people to take it and the J&J shot. The "older, traditional" tech that these vaccines use may help. The fact that they are all extremely effective at keeping people out of hospital is also a plus.

One country that has been using a lot of AZ recently is Australia. They needed to make the shift to really push that shot as well due to supply issues with Pfizer and their winter wave. In this recent article they show some excellent stats on the safety of the vaccine. 11.3 shot's administered, 141 cases of the blood clot with 8 unfortunate deaths. That death rate is I believe 5 times lower than what was observed in the UK due to early detection and better treatment methods.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...-tts/100489408


This past week the US trail results for AZ came out and showed a very very effective vaccine at 74% efficacy with extremely strong protection in seniors at 83.5%. No incidences of the blood clot were reported. This trail is using a 4 week gap on the 2nd dose and we know that the AZ is a slow burner and 12+ weeks has better efficacy. Waiting 15+ weeks is even better and than the massive boost in protection comes at 45+ weeks where the antibody response is through the roof!

https://www.reuters.com/business/hea...al-2021-09-29/

We got to pull all the stops out to get the last remaining possible people done. We may need to try hard and "sell" them on AZ or J&J.

[tvp2003]

Once we’re at a point where vaccine passports are actually used and enforced (with QR codes), I could see some folks agreeing to do the one shot J&J just to get it over with.

[Harry Lime]

One thing that did bother me about the Premier's announcement yesterday, was that he was actively trying to procure more Johnson and Johnson vaccine for the vaccine hesitant. I don't see this moving the needle at all for the hesitant. What they want is a safer and effective mRNA alternative, and J&J is neither of those things.

Novamax has a 76M dose allocation for Canada once it is approved, and the trials have been much more positive than the trials and rollout for J&J and AZ. Kenney is jumping the gun by a month or two, due simply to panic.

More J&J availability will not move the needle at all, and was strictly for the sound bite.

[Buff]

I thought J&J wasn't being used at all in Canada anymore?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Buff

I thought J&J wasn't being used at all in Canada anymore?

I don't think it has been used at all. The initial shipment that was received was apparently destroyed because there were quality control concerns with the facility where they were manufactured. By the time they could deliver replacements, we already had enough supply of the mRNAs so it was decided they weren't needed.

It is approved however, so it could be used without additional delays if a new shipment could be acquired.

According to what Kenney said yesterday, some people are using that as their newest excuse for not getting vaccinated, and claim they'd get the shot if they could get J&J. So BC, Alberta, and Saskatchewan have sent a request to the federal government for access to some J&J shots.

[djsFlames]

After having to delay my second dose twice, 3.5 months later I finally was able to get it done. Needed it to coincide with some days off to deal with potential side effects since I had it pretty bad the first go round.

So far so good. Just a little bit of soreness. Despite being pro-vax through all of this, I'm excited to be done myself.

The pharmacy I booked at had an empty slate on their schedule but when I went in it had filled right up. Some people did not look thrilled to be there. So it appears the vax hesitant crowd are flocking to the pharmacies to keep their pub privileges after all.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I really wonder if the federal government and the provinces can make a little headway with vaccinations by promoting the viral vector vaccines like J&J and AZ for that last few percentage of people who may be willing to take the shot.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...west-1.5607529

I know in the recent AB press conference Kenney indicated that they are looking at using the J&J shot for some people who prefer it. It's a one shot vaccine and it's effectiveness is very high.

When the vaccines were being developed and being first launched, the fear for some people was that the MRNA vaccines were "rushed" "new technology" Than there was the instances of very rare blood clots with AZ and than J&J and the narrative shifted. People didn't want these vaccines and the media kept hammering away on the issue as well.

There is still a supply of AZ in Alberta and if we can make the message known, we may be able to get a lot of people to take it and the J&J shot. The "older, traditional" tech that these vaccines use may help. The fact that they are all extremely effective at keeping people out of hospital is also a plus.

One country that has been using a lot of AZ recently is Australia. They needed to make the shift to really push that shot as well due to supply issues with Pfizer and their winter wave. In this recent article they show some excellent stats on the safety of the vaccine. 11.3 shot's administered, 141 cases of the blood clot with 8 unfortunate deaths. That death rate is I believe 5 times lower than what was observed in the UK due to early detection and better treatment methods.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...-tts/100489408

This past week the US trail results for AZ came out and showed a very very effective vaccine at 74% efficacy with extremely strong protection in seniors at 83.5%. No incidences of the blood clot were reported. This trail is using a 4 week gap on the 2nd dose and we know that the AZ is a slow burner and 12+ weeks has better efficacy. Waiting 15+ weeks is even better and than the massive boost in protection comes at 45+ weeks where the antibody response is through the roof!

https://www.reuters.com/business/hea...al-2021-09-29/

We got to pull all the stops out to get the last remaining possible people done. We may need to try hard and "sell" them on AZ or J&J.

There's nothing "traditional" or "old tech" about viral vector vaccines. The first one ever released for human use was in 2019, and they still do basically the same thing as mRNA vaccines where they stimulate your body to create spike proteins, but do a less effective job of it and with more adverse reactions.

If the government is really serious about coddling peoples' fears, then they should be fast-tracking Novavax. It's far more effective than the viral vector vaccines based on trial data, has fewer adverse reactions than either mRNA or viral vector vaccines, and the technology has been in wide use for nearly 40 years with the Hepatitis B shot (and later HPV and flu shots). The amount of people who are too paranoid to take an mRNA vaccine but who will be willing to inject a technology that's just as new, but that has more safety issues is probably tiny.

And were are you getting the "through the roof" antibody response at 45 weeks for AZ? The UK is finding that effectiveness is dropping to 47% at 20 weeks and prevention of hospitalization drops to 77% at the same time:

https://www.ft.com/__origami/service...ext&width=1260

There's a reason why the UK has decided to only using mRNA vaccines for boosters.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by opendoor

There's nothing "traditional" or "old tech" about viral vector vaccines. The first one ever released for human use was in 2019, and they still do basically the same thing as mRNA vaccines where they stimulate your body to create spike proteins, but do a less effective job of it and with more adverse reactions.

If the government is really serious about coddling peoples' fears, then they should be fast-tracking Novavax. It's far more effective than the viral vector vaccines based on trial data, has fewer adverse reactions than either mRNA or viral vector vaccines, and the technology has been in wide use for nearly 40 years with the Hepatitis B shot (and later HPV and flu shots). The amount of people who are too paranoid to take an mRNA vaccine but who will be willing to inject a technology that's just as new, but that has more safety issues is probably tiny.

And were are you getting the "through the roof" antibody response at 45 weeks for AZ? The UK is finding that effectiveness is dropping to 47% at 20 weeks and prevention of hospitalization drops to 77% at the same time:

https://www.ft.com/__origami/service...ext&width=1260

There's a reason why the UK has decided to only using mRNA vaccines for boosters.

I will be the first to say that it does appear you have a vast level of knowledge in regards to most things realted to Covid and to the vaccine development etc, I just try to follow the headlines and some of the research.

As for the J&J vaccine and the AZ, I do think the data is about as clear as it can be, they are very very very effective vaccine. They prevent death and keep people out of hospital and that is what we know. It does sound like the Premier's are trying to get some J&J doses for some reason. As for the other vaccines? I really don't know too much but is it an option for Health Canada to fast track?

As for the AZ shot, we know that the 12 week interval produced a strong level of protection across the board. In July AZ released findings showing that waiting 15-25 weeks produced an even stronger response and waiting 45+ weeks produced an antibody response 4 times that of the 12th week with immunity lasting a year.

I do know there is some disagreement between AZ and the government on the need to boost everyone else 50+. The data will be important to know.

https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-ce...hird-dose.html

[Harry Lime]

Interesting. Basically the 'morning after pill' for Covid, taken within five day of symptoms presenting. There will also be substantial in practice evidence from the States before we see this in Canada.

Merck and its partner Ridgeback Biotherapeutics announced Friday that early results from its trials show that patients who received molnupiravir within five days of COVID-19 symptoms had about half the rate of hospitalization and death as those who received a placebo.

Sharma said Health Canada has no specific time for completion of the review as it can take "months," but also that the pill will be evaluated and "held to the standards" as any other medication or treatment.

Merck said it plans to submit the data in the coming days to health officials in the U.S. and other countries to authorize the pill's use.

A decision from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration could come within weeks after that, and be distributed soon after.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/corona...ment-1.5607843

[Manhattanboy]

Too soon to be considering third (same type booster) doses for adults generally?

Studies now out to the effect that antibody protection is almost NIL seven months after Pfizer second shot.

Maybe start a new thread to discuss?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by looooob

not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere- if so apologies but interestingly Alberta snuck past Manitoba again yesterday in the percent population with a single dose of vaccine


now a few obvious points here
1. the margin is slim, and the impact is not measurable at this point given that this is now based on very recent (and therefore not fully baked in ) doses
2. the gap in fully vaccinated/2nd doses remains vast in favour of MB





anyways Alberta and Manitoba historically had been pretty close (or Alberta ahead) on vaccinations, then our premier declared COVID over , while Manitoba was mired in a brutal 3rd wave and their vaccinations kept on shooting up. is interesting to see these trends maybe narrowing (and no it is not thanks to the Kenney pennies)

Alberta has many more cities / towns with more people.

Manitoba has Winnipeg, Brandon, Portage, and then some other smaller towns.

Also, if you dig deeper into Manitoba, you'd notice the dense population areas have VERY high vaccination rates, while the Southern Health region has much lower rates, and is actually dragging the overall numbers down.

I haven't checked in a while, but many areas in Winnipeg were almost at 90% both shots a month ago.

Alberta on the other hand has many more 'rural' cities and towns with Brandon & Portage population numbers.

[EldrickOnIce]

Would like to see these studies. Everything I've seen says immunity wanes but not so significantly.
That said, I got booster this morning.
Did I need it?
Probably not
Am I truly at risk/compromised?
Not really, but I did qualify.
Do I feel bad about exercising my privilege?
I'll get over it

[Manhattanboy]

Here is an article from Reuters on waning immunity of Pfizer/BioNTech:

https://flip.it/9Hcv1y

[Buff]

So, what? Get a booster of one of the two mRNA vaccines every 4-6 months to stay up on this? I guess if it wanes and some people show no antibodies after 6 months it isn't unreasonable to think that we'd need constant boosters.

I'm willing to do whatever it takes, but it would get tiring doing it so regularly. The vaccine resistant will grow in numbers.

I know that we heard of other vaccines that weren't ready to be released yet that could be available in 2022 that could be even better than our current vaccines. I'm happy to jump to those, should they be approved. Maybe what we have all been taking now is just something that would work in the short term until we can get something better and stronger. I'm fine with that too.

My biggest worry is the anti-vax crowd. They're loud and vocal and bound to start to sway people if we have to change things up or get boosters more than once per year.

[tvp2003]

Edit: sorry wrong thread

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Here is an article from Reuters on waning immunity of Pfizer/BioNTech:

https://flip.it/9Hcv1y

That's just the antibodies though, only one component of immunity and quite normal for that part of the response to drop off over time.

[Knut]

A good write up on "Natural immunity" and the danger of the term. It also provides some good information regarding Natural Immunity vs. VAccine immunity.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/nat...nity-covid-19/

Although scientific authorities widely use “natural immunity” as a neutral description of immunity acquired through infection, it has different significance outside of medical journals. That’s because people often treat naturalness as synonymous with purity and goodness, even holiness. “God gave us a natural immunity,” said an announcer recently on Victory TV, a popular Christian network. “I personally choose God-given natural immunity over the new experimental vaccine for the safety and protection of myself and my family,” writes a chiropractor at Infinite Wellness Natural Healing Center. “How about you?”

[Harry Lime]

I understand the danger in framing natural immunity the way it was above, but I hope that we don't start lumping people who have had covid into the anti-vaxx bucket. That bucket already holds a pretty diverse group.

Natural immunity does convey the antibodies of equal to or greater than one shot, and that should probably be legally identified so that they only have to take one more shot to fill the mandate.