[News] Monahan knows what's on the line this season: 'I have a lot to prove'

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Some don't, and that's unfortunate.

He was the beginning of this rebuild and the first to re-stoke the fires of hope with his 22 goal rookie campaign playing with vets and NO Gaudreau.

I don't know why I hear this so often. Hudler and Cammalleri weren't chopped liver. They were good players. Hudler even lead the league in even strength points in 2014-15.

For me, the real unfortunate thing is that the rebuilding years of 2013 and 2014 yielded Sam Bennett and Sean Monahan as this organization's top draft picks. Monahan isn't providing much for this team this right now and neither are the assets acquired in the Sam Bennett trade. This team would be so much further ahead had this organization drafted a William Nylander, Nikolaj Ehlers or even a Bo Horvat instead.

[CroFlames]

It’s just so unusual for a player who has been consistent for so long to just forget how to hockey. There’s something else going on. Likely injury or recovery.

I hope so bad he bounces back as he’s one of my favorite Flames ever. The first positive sign to come out of the rebuild.

[dammage79]

Up until this past season Monahan has been worth every single penny of his contract.

And even then, I'm willing to give Monahan the entire season this to work it out. Flames are playing great hockey and can afford to ride this out. It'd be a much different story if results were not good. But right now, let Monahan keep plugging away.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don't know why I hear this so often. Hudler and Cammalleri weren't chopped liver. They were good players. Hudler even lead the league in even strength points in 2014-15.

For me, the real unfortunate thing is that the rebuilding years of 2013 and 2014 yielded Sam Bennett and Sean Monahan as this organization's top draft picks. Monahan isn't providing much for this team this right now and neither are the assets acquired in the Sam Bennett trade. This team would be so much further ahead had this organization drafted a William Nylander, Nikolaj Ehlers or even a Bo Horvat instead.

Edit: I was wrong. Hudler was signed way earlier than I remember.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Unfair and inaccurate.

Neal was a poison probably before he even set foot in the locker room. He pouted and sulked and who knows what else he did behind closed doors. The Flames could not get rid of him fast enough.

Monahan is a pro. He cares and he is doing the best he can with what’s been asked. If injuries have set his abilities back, that’s an unfortunate circumstance for the team, but worse for him. It’s too bad but he’s not the first and certainly won’t be the last to have injuries limit his effectiveness or change him from what he once was.

There really needs to be a serious discussion about pain tolerance/playing through injuries and how much is too much before it fully effects someone’s career

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

It’s just so unusual for a player who has been consistent for so long to just forget how to hockey. There’s something else going on. Likely injury or recovery.

I hope so bad he bounces back as he’s one of my favorite Flames ever. The first positive sign to come out of the rebuild.

Jeff Friesen comes to mind as a guy who was a consistent 20-goal, 40 to 50-point guy with peaks of 30+ goals and 60+ points who suddenly forgot how to play at age 28.

Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals at age 25, scored 12 three seasons later and then was out of the league a year after that. It does happen but you're right, it's rare.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Jeff Friesen comes to mind as a guy who was a consistent 20-goal, 40 to 50-point guy with peaks of 30+ goals and 60+ points who suddenly forgot how to play at age 28.

Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals at age 25, scored 12 three seasons later and then was out of the league a year after that. It does happen but you're right, it's rare.

Joe Thornton proped up Cheecho

In a way Johnny did Monahan.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Jeff Friesen comes to mind as a guy who was a consistent 20-goal, 40 to 50-point guy with peaks of 30+ goals and 60+ points who suddenly forgot how to play at age 28.

Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals at age 25, scored 12 three seasons later and then was out of the league a year after that. It does happen but you're right, it's rare.

Kyle Turris is another guy who free fell by his 30th birthday.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Jeff Friesen comes to mind as a guy who was a consistent 20-goal, 40 to 50-point guy with peaks of 30+ goals and 60+ points who suddenly forgot how to play at age 28.

Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals at age 25, scored 12 three seasons later and then was out of the league a year after that. It does happen but you're right, it's rare.

Like Monahan, both were one-dimensional players who fell off a cliff once that element of their game declined.

This is why GMs have to be ruthless with asset management. Hoping a declining player bounces back isn’t a strategy. And getting less for a player than you hoped, and less than he would have a returned a season sooner, is better than getting nothing.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Jeff Friesen comes to mind as a guy who was a consistent 20-goal, 40 to 50-point guy with peaks of 30+ goals and 60+ points who suddenly forgot how to play at age 28.

Jonathan Cheechoo scored 56 goals at age 25, scored 12 three seasons later and then was out of the league a year after that. It does happen but you're right, it's rare.

Cheechoo benefited a ton from Thornton. That era's Rob Brown if you will.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Matt Duchene is bucking the trend - he looked D-O-N-E. This year PPG.
he's a guy that produces the enough occasional good years that GMs overlook the rest which is largely mediocre.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

This is why GMs have to be ruthless with asset management. Hoping a declining player bounces back isn’t a strategy. And getting less for a player than you hoped, and less than he would have a returned a season sooner, is better than getting nothing.

You mean like how the Flames were ruthless with Sam Bennett?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Cheechoo benefited a ton from Thornton. That era's Rob Brown if you will.

Cheechoo was ALL Thornton. He had 96 assists that season.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Even Ferland who somehow a lot of people really liked, I think more from the Vancouver series than subsequent regular seasons) was a 20 goal 40 point guy. That is really not very special on a top line.

Monahan by contrast has averaged 28 goals per 82 games over his entire career now

You're comparing a guy who played PP1, 3v3, etc vs a guy who did not. Hardly apples-to-apples here. In fact when you "contrast" those two that way you're just creating smoke-and-mirrors as to their actual on-ice impacts.

When Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland was a line (February 7th 2017 to March 21st 2018), here was the 5v5 production of the team's forwards:



Not only was Ferland outproducing Matthew Tkachuk 5v5, but he had a slightly higher primary points rate than Monahan too (1.86 vs 1.72), and it's not as if this line was ALWAYS together over that period - when they went cold it was always Ferland who would find himself demoted down to guys like Brouwer and Stajan. While there's some argument to be made that a centre might be expected to have a higher secondary assist rate than a non-elite winger, it's pretty evident that Ferland's secondary assist rate was unsustainably low over that period (same argument might be made for Matthew Tkachuk and Sam Bennett too). Secondary assists are by far the most noisy of point stats, since there's very little repeatability in them from year-to-year.

What's really telling however, specific to Monahan, is that his IPP (individual points percentage) is pretty average, not unlike like Ferland and Backlund. Gaudreau was a full tier above everyone else - if the team was scoring when he was on the ice, he was almost certainly picking up a point on that scoring play.

Sean Monahan's a player who needs Gaudreau a lot more than Gaudreau ever needed Monahan (although that period where Gulutzan stapled Nick Shore to Gaudreau was some kind of awful). The idea that Johnny-Mony was ever a mutually beneficial relationship was probably a falsehood in relative terms. A guy like Kucherov gets to play with Brayden Point. A guy like Ovechkin got to play with guys like Kuznetsov and Backstrom. Huberdeau got to play Barkov. Gaudreau, relatively speaking, was unfortunate to have to play with Monahan all those years.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

Don't think it's negativity. Fan 960 guys are usually pretty pro Flames and they've been beating the buy him out drum the last 2 weeks or so.

I really don't think anyone would take him at his salary even if it's only one year. I think Flames would need to give up assets to get rid of his contract.

Two months into a season after an off season surgery, and a guy on a 40 point pace is getting bought out by some, and this isn't negative?

Finding other negative people isn't proof of realism!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

It’s just so unusual for a player who has been consistent for so long to just forget how to hockey. There’s something else going on. Likely injury or recovery.

I hope so bad he bounces back as he’s one of my favorite Flames ever. The first positive sign to come out of the rebuild.

I don't think his shot is gone, I think his ability to get to where he needs to get to is hampered by the hip, so he doesn't have time to get the shot off.

He wasn't fast to begin with, and I don't think I notice a change to his top speed, but off the blocks he looks limited.

[neo45]

Buyout won’t happen. I’m assuming the team success this year has bought Treliving another year or two in charge (which I strongly dislike) and I can’t see him buying out another one of his contracts. GM’s often act with short sighted self preservation in mind and optics do matter

But in terms of retaining salary/taking back players I think the team will get creative to move on from him in the offseason. The team has evolved past him to the point where he can be mediocre for a quarter of the season and the team barely feels it standings wise. I think it was a massive mistake to not shut him down last year, I don’t think his absence would have been felt at all compared to what we got from him injured

Things don’t seem to be getting better for him this season. Best game was against a tired Sens half NHL team and then he disappeared again. Pucks die on his stick constantly, he doesn’t move his feet, and he’s basically being used as a decoy on the powerplay

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Two months into a season after an off season surgery, and a guy on a 40 point pace is getting bought out by some, and this isn't negative?

Finding other negative people isn't proof of realism!

The issue is that the team has 4 guys who look like they are pretty key to the short and mid term future of this team who are up for new contracts next season.

His salary and production this year can be accommodated within the teams Cap Structure. But come next season, if you end up losing one of these guys to keep a 40 point power play producer who isn't helping you at even strength that will not be easy to take. Especially if Lucic plays out the year too. That will be a good chunk of change on guys who offer less on ice production.

The laws of nature would seem to suggest that a 27 year old forward who has been thru extensive injuries which have caused a sever regression in production more often than not will not be able to regain past form.

There are some guys who given time to rest have been able to regain close to their old form, Gary Roberts and Teemu Selanne come to mind. Others like Owen Nolan were able to come back and play at a lesser level after some recovery time. But all those guys were off for at least one year be it a lockout or other absences before that happened.

We see how this plays out, but my early observation is that it's not very promising right now.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

It’s just so unusual for a player who has been consistent for so long to just forget how to hockey. There’s something else going on. Likely injury or recovery.

I hope so bad he bounces back as he’s one of my favorite Flames ever. The first positive sign to come out of the rebuild.

We've talked at length on this board about the numerous injuries to Monny over the years.

This is not a mystery.

Unless he recovers from these, the Monny of old may never re-surfaces.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Up until this past season Monahan has been worth every single penny of his contract.

And even then, I'm willing to give Monahan the entire season this to work it out. Flames are playing great hockey and can afford to ride this out. It'd be a much different story if results were not good. But right now, let Monahan keep plugging away.

Disagree completely. He's never given the team a 200 foot game, nor has he proven able to generate his own offense is any way shape or form. Now that he's been unhinged from Gaudreau completely, he's basically useless to the franchise and this has nothing to do with his latest injury - it started long before that time.