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Old 12-10-2024, 12:08 AM   #3761
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Originally Posted by howard_the_duck View Post
I agree from a market standpoint, but you can’t decouple the inept management that’s plagued each of these teams.
In fact, it's all the same problem. Competent managers get offers from multiple teams and can choose to work in a place where they have a better chance to succeed. If you were offered your choice to be GM in Calgary or Tampa, with the same expectations on you either way, wouldn't you choose Tampa?
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Old 12-10-2024, 12:09 AM   #3762
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When the Flames won the division twice and finished 2nd overall I think its fair to say they were contenders
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Old 12-10-2024, 12:12 AM   #3763
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"enjoy the ride"

The same ride we've been on for 30+ years, finishing between 13th-18th league wide?
That's absolutely false. The team has finished much higher and much lower.


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I think a lot of the handwringing is probably because people are worried the Flames will make some win now moves. I don’t think they do much this season besides maybe trade Vladar or Andersson if a good offer comes along.
Some of the handwringing is because the team happens, by sheer coincidence, to be right in the ‘mushy middle’ of the standings now, and Monahammer is convinced this is because the current management is doing exactly the same stupid things he imagines every Calgary GM in history has always done.

In fact, the team had a really hot start and then cooled off. At some point in falling down the table, you will be in the middle, guaranteed, unless your team is actually good enough to stop falling. This one has shown that it really isn't.
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Last edited by Jay Random; 12-10-2024 at 12:26 AM.
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Old 12-10-2024, 04:28 AM   #3764
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Nashville should fire Trotz not the coach. Hire an offensive coach and give him some terrible tools to work with. 2nd oldest roster. Players who showed regression trading away the younger players. Terrible start to his career as GM and it might not last.
If the firesale does happen I would love the Flames to get one of Evangelista, Parssinen, and Novak.
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Old 12-10-2024, 05:47 AM   #3765
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If the firesale does happen I would love the Flames to get one of Evangelista, Parssinen, and Novak.
It's unlikely that Nashville, even in a "firesale" situation, would rid themselves of their better young players.

If Calgary continues to free fall, would Wolf, Coronato and Zary be available, or perhaps more likely Kuzmenko and the older UFA's to be?
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Old 12-10-2024, 05:58 AM   #3766
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It's unlikely that Nashville, even in a "firesale" situation, would rid themselves of their better young players.

If Calgary continues to free fall, would Wolf, Coronato and Zary be available, or perhaps more likely Kuzmenko and the older UFA's to be?
I see your point, but they already gave away Tomassino-who already has 3 goals and 4 points in 5 games with the Pens. Parssinen is being healthy scratched regularly, and Novak is a bit older at 27- and struggling mightily.

Evangelista isn't likely to be moved as he's likely to develop into a star winger IMO, but one can dream....
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Old 12-10-2024, 06:21 AM   #3767
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When the Flames won the division twice and finished 2nd overall I think its fair to say they were contenders
I’d say the proof is in the pudding. Each of those seasons, the Flames got destroyed in the second round. (Edit: With the Avs, it was the first round.) They didn’t get beat by a Cinderella team with insane goaltending or shooting luck. They ran into a team with better centres, whom they couldn’t match. I wouldn’t say either team was a contender.

Last edited by Nelson; 12-10-2024 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 12-10-2024, 06:44 AM   #3768
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Sebastian Aho, who consistently flirts with 40 goals and sits around PPG pace...is the problem?

The issue with Carolina is Brind'Amour is enamoured by Ted Drury and won't move Necas to center (where he wants to play) to help bolster their middle depth. As good as Rod the Bod is, and he's an excellent coach, he relies way too heavy on a guy like Drury and still Jordan Staal. Maybe Aho isn't in that top tier star player category but he's a damn good player who doesn't exactly vanish in the playoffs either. You can build around this guy.

Being enamoured by a guy who hasn't played in the NHL in 24 years is definitely an issue.


Looking at Aho's playoffs stats, he's been remarkably consistent. No matter the games played, since entering the league he's had 12, 12, 11, 11, 12, and 12 points in the playoffs.
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Old 12-10-2024, 07:19 AM   #3769
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I’d say the proof is in the pudding. Each of those seasons, the Flames got destroyed in the second round. (Edit: With the Avs, it was the first round.) They didn’t get beat by a Cinderella team with insane goaltending or shooting luck. They ran into a team with better centres, whom they couldn’t match. I wouldn’t say either team was a contender.
I think the term destroyed is extreme. Yes they lost both series in a gentleman’s sweep where they won game 1 and lost 4 in a row. They had multi goal leads in the third period twice against the Oilers and were tied a third time in the third and lost. The Avs scored goals with the goalie pulled in 2 games to force OT and win. The only constant in both series is they were embarrassed in game 3. Flames happened to get the door blown off them in game 5 against the Avs but the Oilers won game 5 in OT after one of the worst calls where Coleman “kicked” the puck in the net.

Yea both were short series but the Flames could have won both and deserved better against the Oilers but Markstrom completely choked.
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Old 12-10-2024, 07:24 AM   #3770
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The Flames got absolutely dominated by the Avalanche regardless of the score. They were circling around the Flames players after that first game. So much speed.

Go watch 5 minutes of any game after the first one and you will remember. Flames barely touched the puck.
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Old 12-10-2024, 07:32 AM   #3771
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The Flames got absolutely dominated by the Avalanche regardless of the score. They were circling around the Flames players after that first game. So much speed.

Go watch 5 minutes of any game after the first one and you will remember. Flames barely touched the puck.
Game 2 and 4 the Flames had the lead with less than 3 minutes to play and the Avs tied each game with the goalie pulled. Those were winnable games. Games 3 and 5 the Flames were absolutely decimated. Cale Makar also made an immediate impact when he debuted in game 2.

I think the Flames looked like far more of a contender in 22 than 19. In 19 they had 5 players over 70pts and Gio being one of them got the Norris. In 22 they had the best line in hockey and both Lindholm and Markstrom were runners up for the Selke and Vezina, Sutter was coach of the year and Gaudreau finished 4th in Hart. Both of those teams won 50 games.
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Old 12-10-2024, 07:42 AM   #3772
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Just because they flamed out in the playoffs doesn't meant they weren't considered a legitimate contender. There's usually at least one that goes out early.
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Old 12-10-2024, 07:56 AM   #3773
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Game 2 and 4 the Flames had the lead with less than 3 minutes to play and the Avs tied each game with the goalie pulled. Those were winnable games. Games 3 and 5 the Flames were absolutely decimated. Cale Makar also made an immediate impact when he debuted in game 2.

I think the Flames looked like far more of a contender in 22 than 19. In 19 they had 5 players over 70pts and Gio being one of them got the Norris. In 22 they had the best line in hockey and both Lindholm and Markstrom were runners up for the Selke and Vezina, Sutter was coach of the year and Gaudreau finished 4th in Hart. Both of those teams won 50 games.
I agree with Keenan87 on this one. The Avs were skating circles around the Flames in the offensive zone. The Flames did not have players that could match up with the Avs star forwards. It was brutal to watch, and I remember the metrics matching.

The Oilers were also much better than the Flames.

Neither Flames team was close to matching up in the playoffs. That's my point.
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Old 12-10-2024, 08:15 AM   #3774
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Vladar for Justin Poirier and a pick?
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I see your point, but they already gave away Tomassino-who already has 3 goals and 4 points in 5 games with the Pens. Parssinen is being healthy scratched regularly, and Novak is a bit older at 27- and struggling mightily.

Evangelista isn't likely to be moved as he's likely to develop into a star winger IMO, but one can dream....
Also traded their best prospect goalie because they blocked him by going with Wedgewood.

After building this crap he threatened with a rebuild with young players and turns around and ships out the young players lol.

Might be on the level of Kevyn Adams. Maybe even worse.
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Old 12-10-2024, 08:15 AM   #3775
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In fact, it's all the same problem. Competent managers get offers from multiple teams and can choose to work in a place where they have a better chance to succeed. If you were offered your choice to be GM in Calgary or Tampa, with the same expectations on you either way, wouldn't you choose Tampa?
There are plenty of examples of good GMs in cold weather/small market teams. Chevy in Winnipeg has done an excellent job. I understand your point but at the end of the day there are only 32 jobs.
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Old 12-10-2024, 08:26 AM   #3776
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Also traded their best prospect goalie because they blocked him by going with Wedgewood.

After building this crap he threatened with a rebuild with young players and turns around and ships out the young players lol.

Might be on the level of Kevyn Adams. Maybe even worse.
Hopefully, he can somehow right the ship, though it’s likely impossible at this point. It would be a real shame if his legacy in Nashville was tainted. I had the same concerns when Conroy took over, but thankfully he’s doing a pretty admirable job.

Edit: Askarov’s stats from the AHL and 2 games with SJ are scary.

AHL: 1.75 GAA, .946 SV%
NHL: 1.96 GAA, .927 SV%

Last edited by Sandman; 12-10-2024 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 12-10-2024, 08:28 AM   #3777
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How current you want to get? I took your advice and crunched average points per season over the last 30 (normalized.) what would you believe the flames average is?

It's ~92 points, so that would be out of the playoffs on the 96 point line.

We are extremely consistent in being in the mush.
You're using average points? Not a good response after the lazy comment!

By your rationale a 100 point team one year and a 80 point team the next year is the same mushy middle as a team that finished with 90 points and 9th in their conference two straight years.
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Old 12-10-2024, 08:32 AM   #3778
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Perhaps- I hope that is the case. I am definitely being a pessimist and willing to admit that, but I have not yet seen enough to show that.
Having 20M in cap space and trading their starting goaltender isn't different enough for you?

You like averages ... go crunch average cap space for the last 20 years and see if they are on a different path.
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Old 12-10-2024, 09:36 AM   #3779
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You're using average points? Not a good response after the lazy comment!

By your rationale a 100 point team one year and a 80 point team the next year is the same mushy middle as a team that finished with 90 points and 9th in their conference two straight years.
Nah, you're implying a rationale I never used or made. For the record, I think anyone could tell you that a sample size of 2 wouldn't make sense but taking the average of a sample size of 30 is a different conversation.

I said that over 30 years we've been the most mediocre team. I think the best way to show that is by deviation from a statistical mean. Our statistical mean is out of playoffs, but in 14/30 seasons we've only deviated by 6 points from the mean. 3 games.

We've only had over 96 points or equivalent in 9 seasons over the last 30.
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Old 12-10-2024, 09:47 AM   #3780
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Nah, you're implying a rationale I never used or made. For the record, I think anyone could tell you that a sample size of 2 wouldn't make sense but taking the average of a sample size of 30 is a different conversation.

I said that over 30 years we've been the most mediocre team. I think the best way to show that is by deviation from a statistical mean. Our statistical mean is out of playoffs, but in 14/30 seasons we've only deviated by 6 points from the mean. 3 games.

We've only had over 96 points or equivalent in 9 seasons over the last 30.
30 years is the same as 2 but 15 times.

A team that doesn't change year over year can appear to look like a team that radically changes year over year due to an average.

Your summary of 96 points 1/3 of the time isn't much of an argument. That's the expected outcome for all teams!
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