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Old 01-20-2025, 03:29 PM   #5561
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I'm not a huge fan of the deal but I hope he makes me eat crow. I do like that he hits for power from both sides of the plate. So we may see a continuation in power numbers with Left field at the Rogers centre being little league compared to Camden Yards.

At this point still feels like lipstick on a pig.
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Old 01-20-2025, 03:38 PM   #5562
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ESPN gives it a C-. I would give it a D

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/sto...trade-analysis

He put up a 2.9 War last season , 3.0 the season before , and 2.3 the year before

He is 30 already , can only play DH. And has a career .307 OBP

The second his bat slows down at all he’s the biggest contract anchor in the league

For 1 or 2 year as a DH on a contending team - Sure

For 5 years on the Jays . This will be 3x worse then the Springer deal

No one wanted to pay this guy what he wanted (or at least the term)

Jays overpaid because they struck out on everyone else and managed to get a salary anchor for 5 years

The Jays have spent 19 million on Santandar, 5 million on Straw , 15 million on Gimenez, and 11 million on Hoffman

50!!! Million a year spent on an aging DH who can’t get on base , a guy who won’t make the roster , a middle reliever who failed 2 physicals , and a speedy light hitting defensive 2B

We also give up a 2nd round pick and international signing money for the pleasure of signing Santandar to his retirement contract

How these guys have a job is beyond me at this point
Hard to take posts filled with hyperbole serious.

Santander can only play DH? He only DH’d 25 times last year. Obviously he can play OF, Varsho will cover up for his lack of range, which is where most of negative impact comes from defensively.

I am not a fan of this front office either, but this deal isn’t bad. Plus this team has money to spend who cares, go out and get the best players available.
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Old 01-20-2025, 03:45 PM   #5563
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I wonder if they are looking at Alonso still, and if not that then I do wonder if they'd be willing to take on Arenado's salary to fill the hole at 3B (you know they'd love his defense)....because that suddenly looks like an okay lineup at least.

LF: Santander
CF: Varsho
RF: Springer
1B: Vladdy
2B: Gimenez
SS: Bichette
3B Arenado
C: Kirk
DH: Wagner

Clement / Schneider / Heineman / Others (Martinez, Barger, Loperfido)

SP: Berrios, Gausman, Francis, Bassitt, Rodriguez (Manoah once healthy)
RP: Hoffman, Garcia, Swanson, Green, Sandlin, Pop

If some young guys could step up, and the pitching staff has a bit of a bounce back season then that's probably at least a team in the playoff hunt.

Last edited by SuperMatt18; 01-20-2025 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 01-20-2025, 03:53 PM   #5564
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Jays desperately needed additional power, this is the first step in addressing that. Hope they keep adding.
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Old 01-20-2025, 04:03 PM   #5565
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Santander has been killing it since I signed him as a free agent in MLB The Show- I'm sure Atkins must play as well
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Old 01-20-2025, 04:05 PM   #5566
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Hard to take posts filled with hyperbole serious.

Santander can only play DH? He only DH’d 25 times last year. Obviously he can play OF, Varsho will cover up for his lack of range, which is where most of negative impact comes from defensively.

I am not a fan of this front office either, but this deal isn’t bad. Plus this team has money to spend who cares, go out and get the best players available.
They didn’t get the best players avail. They got players no one else wanted

Reports are teams did not want to give Santandar term - Jays did
Hoffman failed 2 physicals - 2 teams did not want him after the fact
And Cleveland effectively salary dumped us 2 players they didn’t want (I actually like the Gimenez deal a lot )

There is no coherent strategy to their approach - it’s please someone take our money

Sure Santandar CAN play OF - but you sure don’t want him out there . Let me know after seeing him play D for 25 games what you think of him out there .

I predict fans will hate him by the all star break (hope I am wrong and he’s a late career bloomer)

The team isn’t that bad , and could if everything breaks right get a wildcard , see Vlad and Bo leave in the offseason , be missing a 2nd round pick for Signin Santandar , and start a rebuild over with 4 more years of a anchor contract on the books .

Yaaaaay
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Old 01-20-2025, 04:30 PM   #5567
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They didn’t get the best players avail. They got players no one else wanted

Reports are teams did not want to give Santandar term - Jays did
Hoffman failed 2 physicals - 2 teams did not want him after the fact
And Cleveland effectively salary dumped us 2 players they didn’t want (I actually like the Gimenez deal a lot )

There is no coherent strategy to their approach - it’s please someone take our money

Sure Santandar CAN play OF - but you sure don’t want him out there . Let me know after seeing him play D for 25 games what you think of him out there .

I predict fans will hate him by the all star break (hope I am wrong and he’s a late career bloomer)

The team isn’t that bad , and could if everything breaks right get a wildcard , see Vlad and Bo leave in the offseason , be missing a 2nd round pick for Signin Santandar , and start a rebuild over with 4 more years of a anchor contract on the books .

Yaaaaay
Other teams wanted Santander, the Angels and Tigers were also interested. We gave the best deal on got the player.

The Orioles still offered Hoffman a contract after his physical it just wasn’t the same deal as before.

Santander had a .993 Field% last year so he makes the plays he gets too. Just doesn’t have the range to get to all the balls.
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Old 01-20-2025, 04:35 PM   #5568
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Sure Santandar CAN play OF - but you sure don’t want him out there . Let me know after seeing him play D for 25 games what you think of him out there .
The last two seasons all everyone has complained about is not having an outfielder that can hit, defense be damned, and that moving Teoscar was a mistake.

Now they bring in a guy that's probably as close to Teoscar as you can get without it actually being Teoscar...and it's a mistake.
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Old 01-20-2025, 04:36 PM   #5569
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I will also add that most predictions I have seen for Santander were between 4-6 years at $20-25m, so 5 years at $18.5m is pretty good.
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Old 01-20-2025, 04:41 PM   #5570
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The last two seasons all everyone has complained about is not having an outfielder that can hit, defense be damned, and that moving Teoscar was a mistake.

Now they bring in a guy that's probably as close to Teoscar as you can get without it actually being Teoscar...and it's a mistake.
Yeah. Santander has consistently been my 2nd choice outfield for a FA signing (and Soto was probably never happening...)

And any time the Jays sign a FA it will be because they were the high bidder. So there will always be criticism. But he's a legit OF power bat. That costs in money/term.

I think Varsho can cover a bit on the defensive side of the ball and over time he'll move more into being the DH, which is fine. I also think there's a chance he opts out after the 3 years (especially if salaries continue to rise) and they let someone else overpay for his retirement years.
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Old 01-20-2025, 05:07 PM   #5571
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Orioles fans have nothing but nice things to say about him as he departs the organization. That is a good thing. https://forum.orioleshangout.com/top...iation-thread/

It’s been such a hard few years that it is tough to really celebrate anything as a Jays fan. We are a better team than we were 24 hours ago and there is a lot left to do.
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Old 01-20-2025, 07:41 PM   #5572
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Glad they added a power bat.

Santander had a comp pick attached to him, so now that the Jays have given that up they will hopefully take a run at other FA's with comp picks attached.

Bregman, Alonso and Pivetta I believe are the FA's left who received QO's

All three would be great if we're trying to win and all, but that won't happen haha
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Old 01-20-2025, 08:40 PM   #5573
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I still think they get more than their fair share of criticism. AA's best stretch of baseball in Toronto were 83, 93, 89 win seasons. Atkins and Shapiro had a stretch of 91, 92, 89.

Have they been perfect...Nope. But I think sometimes their biggest critique is just that they aren't AA.

To me the biggest and most fair criticism has to actually be their contract management, with drafting a close second.

Free agent signings have mostly been good: Gausman, Ryu, Semien, IKF, Kiermaier, etc were all pretty good signings. The Springer signing was an overpayment, but also a signing I get because they were trying to signal a bit of a culture change.

Trades are a bit of a mixed bag but overall still pretty good.

Berrios...a win.
Ray...huge win
Chapman...still a win although probably should have made a bigger effort to re-sign him.
Francis/Richards for Tellez...looks like it will be a win
Varsho for Gurriel and Moreno...kind of a push right now based on WAR but looks like it will be a loss long term due to Varsho's bat.
Hernandez for Swanson/Mack...this is a loss longer term, but in season 1 when Swanson was great for the bullpen it didn't look as bad, but really depends if Teoscar could have been re-signed to stay here or if he was walking after 2023 anyways.
Gimenez + Sandlin for Horwitz + Mitchell...I think we look back at this in 12 months as a steal of a deal.

But in the end the only piece they gave up in a trade that really hurts long term is Moreno because Gurriel and Teoscar didn't have much control left anyways.

Drafting is the biggest question or flaw for that team mostly because they haven't been able to draft any stars in the first round, even though overall drafting is probably okay.

2016: Bichette, Biggio as notables...with TJ Zeuch being the first round bust.

2017: Nate Pearson is the notable that was derailed with injury, Warmouth was the first round that didn't work out. Davis Schneider was a 28th round pick.

2018: Groshans, Conine, Kloffenstein, and Barger the notable names but no stars again.

2019: Manoah, Horwitz, Eden played games for the Jays, Manoah looked like a superstar...until he wasn't anymore.

2020: Martin is the biggest notable...at least got value in a trade for him.

2021: Hoglund, Tiedemann...got value in a trade for Hoglund, hopefully Tiedemann is something.

Probably too soon to really say too much about any of the 2022 and onwards picks.

International Free Agents have been pretty okay, especially early on, and maybe makes up for a bit of the drafting woes: Signed Moreno, Gurriel Jr, Alejandro Kirk, Pardinho (ranked 6th in 2017), Orelvis Martinez (ranked 7 in 2018).

Now where they've struggled a bit is keeping guys like Ray, Semien, and Chapman who they made good moves to get, but then couldn't convince to stay longer term. And then of course now with the Vladdy and Bo Bichette contract scenarios (but some bad luck involved there too where those players inconsistency made it hard to commit longer term).

Lots of room for improvement for sure, but they get talked about like they have done nothing good for the franchise and everything is terrible. Which really hasn't been the case at all. They just haven't been able to get the team over the hump.

All extremely fair points. I'd argue Ray and Chapman were let go for good reason as they were asking for too much. Another critique is trading guys too late. Anyway, you've provided good arguments. But I still think their prospect assessments have been mediocre at best, and their ability to win trades through truly hitting a homerun, has not been there. When the team is spending top 10 money, they need to have a top 10 management team. Again, I think Shapiro probably gets some wiggle room from the business side, but there's little excuse for Atkins to be kept around when his lineup is so poor for the price he's paying. It's simply not a playoff team as it stands IMO.
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Old 01-20-2025, 08:49 PM   #5574
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Originally Posted by Jason14h View Post
They didn’t get the best players avail. They got players no one else wanted

Reports are teams did not want to give Santandar term - Jays did
Hoffman failed 2 physicals - 2 teams did not want him after the fact
And Cleveland effectively salary dumped us 2 players they didn’t want (I actually like the Gimenez deal a lot )

There is no coherent strategy to their approach - it’s please someone take our money

Sure Santandar CAN play OF - but you sure don’t want him out there . Let me know after seeing him play D for 25 games what you think of him out there .

I predict fans will hate him by the all star break (hope I am wrong and he’s a late career bloomer)

The team isn’t that bad , and could if everything breaks right get a wildcard , see Vlad and Bo leave in the offseason , be missing a 2nd round pick for Signin Santandar , and start a rebuild over with 4 more years of a anchor contract on the books .

Yaaaaay

Agree that it's best to play Santander at DH. Maybe LF here and there but DH best suits him. A positive is that he came from Baltimore, and knows the AL pitchers being in our division. I think he'll do fine personally. They needed power. Now they have to fill LF, 3B and both have to be filled by someone who has power as well. None of this d-first nonsense they've been peddling.
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Old 01-20-2025, 09:43 PM   #5575
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We'll see..........................

https://twitter.com/user/status/1881547573670166719
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Old 01-21-2025, 01:51 AM   #5576
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I'd argue Ray and Chapman were let go for good reason as they were asking for too much.
I don't think Ray had any intention of re-signing. You could tell by his interview before he became a free agent he was looking to get paid by an American team.
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Old 01-21-2025, 08:21 AM   #5577
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We'll see..........................

https://twitter.com/user/status/1881547573670166719
Do it!
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agggghhhhhh!!!
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Old 01-21-2025, 08:25 AM   #5578
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I think it gets done.

A big part of both Ohtani and Soto was that Rogers wanted them not only for on field but for the marketing aspects.

And while Vladdy is behind Ohtani in that aspect, he's probably ahead of Soto, and due to his fathers popularity he was already a merch and marketing driver the second he joined the Blue Jays.

My guess is it will be something like $450-$500M for 10 or 11 years and will be in that $45-$48M per season range.
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Old 01-21-2025, 10:59 AM   #5579
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I'll step back from the ledge if Vladdy signs long term.
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Old 01-21-2025, 11:57 AM   #5580
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Report is just to get the Mets to up their offer
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