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Old 07-10-2018, 08:05 PM   #21
Flash Walken
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Just saying it should've been a passable team isn't an argument. The moon should be made of cheese.

What, besides being a fan, is drawing you to that conclusion? They weren't adequate the year before and only improved on the defensive side of the puck (in a league that is progressively more offense oriented).

Just the season before they had gotten swept in the first round in a series where one guy scored like 35% of the teams goals. That sounds like a one man show more than a passable roster.

The year before that they were so bad they drafted Tkachuk.

Recognizing this, the GM went out and made some big moves to acquire some badly needed talent.

I don't think that's an indication the General Manager thought he was improving on a passable roster. He even said publicly the year before the concern was the team wouldn't score enough (passable) goals.

All i'm saying is if you gave GG Lindholm and Neal that the team would've been a favourite for the playoffs and a contender for the division just like the article is suggesting. I think peters is also adequate so the expectation is with this roster that the team should finish in the 5-8 position for the playoffs next year challenging for #3 and hopefully make the second round.

I don't think that's outlandish given the roster as it stands.

If you'd given Tkachuk, Lindholm and Neal equivalents to Hartley, his teams would've been better too.

Why is that crazy?

You don't go out and grab a bunch of offensive players if you think the reason you underperformed offensively is because the coach you just fired had been artificially stifling your offense.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:10 PM   #22
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IMO GG was an adequate coach.

GG was adequate. The roster assembled for him was not adequate. You put an adequate coach with an adequate roster and you get first and second round playoff appearances.

Last year the Flames were an inadequate roster with an adequate coach. They've since updated the roster significantly and hopefully the coaching as well.

I think interpersonal dynamics play a bigger role in whether a coach stays or goes than say, wins and losses, and I don't think those dynamics within the organization were right.

I don't think Flames management liked GG much outside of Tre, he certainly did not seem to receive a ton of backing from the team.

One hopes the Flames upgraded their coaching staff but until the games are played that's really all it is. It's not like the Flames brought in Toe Blake here, just another guy from a losing organization with a recent history of coaching a team that didn't perform up to playoff calibre. I'm not going to write him off, he seems like a talented coach. Hopefully this year the roster is tuned finely enough that he'll have some success that eluded him during his tenure in Carolina, buuuuut:

If the team falters next year it will be difficult to blame it on the roster the way things stand now.
Your opinion is against the grain of a lot of fans including the Flames GM. Even the author of this article admitted he would have picked the Flames even if they didn't make any moves so he like many of us quite liked that roster. My finger points squarely at a nice guy that's simply in over his head as an NHL head coach. This my opinion before his was hired by the Flames and he did nothing to change that in his time here that included more puzzling decisions than any Flames head coach in recent history. There's a reason the rest of the league has little interests in him as a head coach and Treliving simply found out the hard way firing him only two seasons into the job.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:13 PM   #23
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In all seriousness, have the Flames ever played up to their offseason expectations if they were expected to be good? The last time I remember the Flames having such a large turnover in players and coaching staff was when Brent Sutter and Bouwmeester came to town. I remember seeing a lot of the same stuff being written about that team as I'm seeing now, and I'm getting a sense of deja vu. I really hope Calgary can exceed their expectations for once instead of disappointing as they usually do
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:21 PM   #24
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In all seriousness, have the Flames ever played up to their offseason expectations if they were expected to be good? The last time I remember the Flames having such a large turnover in players and coaching staff was when Brent Sutter and Bouwmeester came to town. I remember seeing a lot of the same stuff being written about that team as I'm seeing now, and I'm getting a sense of deja vu. I really hope Calgary can exceed their expectations for once instead of disappointing as they usually do
You and every single last one of us. For whatever reason this organization has done better as underdogs than favourites but the GM can't look at that and has to keep plugging away and improving the roster every year. I think last season's roster was good enough but this one Treliving has assembled is even better. As long as they meet their expectations the team should be in a good place and if they exceed them it should be good times for Flames fans.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:35 PM   #25
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Based on the moves made by the GM it would seem that he felt that both the coaching and roster were inadequate.
Which is great from my POV as I was afraid we wouldn't see meaningful roster changes this summer and that a new coach would be viewed as the silver bullet.
The roster changes have been more meaningful than I could have imagined, and what I really like is that they managed to add two younger core members of the team.
So they both got better now (I think) and in the future.
Al Coates would be proud. He was the best GM (IMO) since Cliff at balancing those two elements.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:40 PM   #26
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IMO GG was an adequate coach.

GG was adequate. The roster assembled for him was not adequate. You put an adequate coach with an adequate roster and you get first and second round playoff appearances.

Last year the Flames were an inadequate roster with an adequate coach. They've since updated the roster significantly and hopefully the coaching as well.

I think interpersonal dynamics play a bigger role in whether a coach stays or goes than say, wins and losses, and I don't think those dynamics within the organization were right.

I don't think Flames management liked GG much outside of Tre, he certainly did not seem to receive a ton of backing from the team.

One hopes the Flames upgraded their coaching staff but until the games are played that's really all it is. It's not like the Flames brought in Toe Blake here, just another guy from a losing organization with a recent history of coaching a team that didn't perform up to playoff calibre. I'm not going to write him off, he seems like a talented coach. Hopefully this year the roster is tuned finely enough that he'll have some success that eluded him during his tenure in Carolina, buuuuut:

If the team falters next year it will be difficult to blame it on the roster the way things stand now.
The Flames roster was far better than their position in the standings would suggest
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:48 PM   #27
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I agree they could take the division. Partly because the rest of the division is bad.
If Vegas takes a step back....California gets older.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:14 PM   #28
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I understand the nervousness surrounding lofty expectations given prior eras, but each instance is unique. When I think back to the Keenan/Sutter transition and Bouwmeester acquisition- sure some excitement existed there, but there were a lot of question marks also. Darryl forewent any emphasis on offence to bolster that D, and the forward group was horrid. An inferior number of quality young players to be excited about also.

If the coaching staff is any sort of improvement, I see no reason not to be optimistic about this roster. My only nagging concern is a possible collapse by Smith, where the team has a great year but he decides that 2018-19 is the season to run himself out of the league.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:17 AM   #29
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I have to feel optimistic, I'm wired that way, I think this was a very good summer for the Flames so far, with a couple of more what I would consider to be small patches and moves.


But I like the top 6 a lot more then last year.



I think the blueline will offensively take a bit of a step back, but I think defensively it will be better.


I was a bit of a GG supporter, but reflecting back it was a combination of a crippling cocaine addiction and receiving several blows around the head and next area as a youth. Peter's seems to like to play a much more aggressive forward pressure system then GG.


I think this team is faster, but a bit less physical, a lot more skilled, and has a lot more options in terms of offensive zone starts.


I think that we can write off Vancouver and Arizona, I look at Edmonton and if I was a fan of the team I wouldn't be that excited about the upcoming season. I think San Jose is a threat. I think Ana is a threat but they're getting older as is San Jose. I look at the Kings, and they have a great blueline, and probably the best goalie in the Pacific, but I'm not enamoured with their forward group, and I think Kovalchuk will be one of the worst free agent signings in the history of free agent signings. I still look at Vegas, and I think they'll be good, but the clock is going to strike midnight and guys like Karlsson and some of the other break outs are going to step back and teams aren't going to be surprised by them. I also think they're going to miss Neal Its tougher being the hunted then the hunter.


I think the division is wide open for the taking, so why not the Flames.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:20 AM   #30
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This is one of the deepest teams around now. A couple of players are bound to disappoint, but I am betting some players really improve. An injection of talent and a tonne of possible lines to tinker with goes a long ways in getting players to find chemistry with one another.


I still want to see the Flames play a fast system. If Peters gets that implemented, this is going to be a spectacular season.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:28 AM   #31
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As long as Peters can be better than GG, then I see no reason why this shouldn't be at least a playoff team. It should have been last year, and to me, they look improved on paper at least.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:59 AM   #32
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China trip actually might great for team bonding for all the new players.
Agreed.

Gives the team a massive bonding trip before the season, it'll help Peters implement his style of play quickly. Guaranteed the entire main roster will end up going which should be a massive bonus - by the time they get back you'll probably see most of the PTO's and AHL'ers go down to the farm.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:10 AM   #33
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The Flames roster was far better than their position in the standings would suggest
Frankly, I think if you play that season 10 times with the same roster and even the same coach, you get in the POs 6 times at least. Aside from the top line scoring a bunch, and Smith getting a pretty hot start, lots went wrong. I can't see 10 replays of the season with Backlund/Frolik underperforming, Smith getting hurt and not really bouncing back, Hamonic underperforming for half a season, Versteeg being out long term, Brodie being pretty bad, Jagr not working out, Bennett still struggling, the fourth line not prodicing anything until the second half, the PP being so awful and the Flames getting killed on multiple quick goals. I even think Brouwer wouldn't scored as little the majority of the time. Bingo (I think) showed that statistically the Flames got poorer results than they should have. Lots of it was deserved but plenty wasn't.

Now the roster is much improved and the coach is changed (hopefully for the better). The Flames have improved their odds IMO.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:49 AM   #34
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I think you have it the other way around.

The roster was adequate. It was a passable team that SHOULD have been in the playoff mix right until the last day of the year.

The coaching staff didn't get enough out of the roster, especially when the games mattered.
I don't know. Duhatschek lists Calgary as a bubble team this year after the new player additions. That suggests to me that last year's group was not good enough. This year's group may not be either. I think they can get in but who knows. The Athletic article has Calgary rated at #20 right now.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:09 AM   #35
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I think you have it the other way around.

The roster was adequate. It was a passable team that SHOULD have been in the playoff mix right until the last day of the year.
While they didn't make it till the last day of the year, they were in the mix right up to the point where they lost Smith. If Smith had not gone down and 2 inadequate backups came in I think they would have been in the mix to the end, probably mid 90 points. Adding a Neal and Lindholm would have been a major difference as GG's system seemed to be fine with skilled players, it was just havoc with average players.

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The coaching staff didn't get enough out of the roster, especially when the games mattered.


Or maybe we're both wrong and both the roster and coaching staff were adequate, but being merely adequate doesn't get you to the dance. My junior high days told me as much.
I think this point is what the Flames have been for the past two years. Adequate roster, adequate coach, bubble mid-90s team (had Smith not got injured).

That being said GG was never going to be the guy to get this team over the hump. He was able to bring structure and system to a team that had been playing run and gun under Hartley. He lacked the ability of a head coach to inspire the team as can be seen by the multiple collapses after a goal, and he was sub-par at managing the bench during the game. He was adequate. A good coach would have gotten more out of the roster, and he would have been more successful with a better roster.

Tre made the right moves, he elevated the team from adequate to what I consider good, and hired a coach who he feels will be better than GG. Good roster and adequate coach should get the team to around 100 points, The goal is obviously higher and changes to both needed to be made. I don't think this makes GG as much as a disaster as he is made out to be, but he was never the guy to elevate a team.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:34 AM   #36
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The Flames roster was far better than their position in the standings would suggest
It was marginally better, not far better. The Flames had one of the worst groups of bottom-6 forwards in the NHL, if not the worst. The defence was overrated because people were expecting career-peak Brodie and Hamonic, rather than previous season Brodie and Hamonic. And the backup goaltending position was one of the worst in the league, which shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone who watched Eddie Lack play the last couple seasons.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:00 AM   #37
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Good write up. I disagree that the Flames have improved their roster the most, I think you have to give that to the Leafs. Adding Tavares is pretty tough to match.
You could make an arguement that LA improved just as much.

They added Kovalchuk, plus Phaneuf at the deadline, and they only had 27 games of Jeff Carter last season.

They already had a pretty good core to add to.

They have 7 40ish point forwards.
Probably the second best forward in the division.
The best defenceman.
The best goalie.

I think they are the team to beat in the Pacific this season, although Anaheim is just as deep and should be right there with them.

I would say the other teams are darkhorses to win the division on paper. Of course anything can happen. Just look at Vegas last year.

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Old 07-11-2018, 10:01 AM   #38
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I think they are the team to beat in the Pacific this season
They better be for their sake. That is an aging team in many respects. Window be closin'.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:05 AM   #39
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It would be nice if the Flames could actually meet high expectations for once (other than 1989).

Similar articles came out last Summer and similar articles the Summer the Flames acquired Bouwmeester and the assembled the "Big 3" defense core. God what a disappointment that turned into.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:12 AM   #40
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It was marginally better, not far better. The Flames had one of the worst groups of bottom-6 forwards in the NHL, if not the worst.
After the fact, maybe. Heading into the 2018 season, it was the same roster that had finished 2nd place behind Minnesota in 2017 for most 10 goal scorers, sans Alex Chiasson and plus Jaromir Jagr/Mark Jankowski/Andrew Mangiapane. Sam Bennett had just come off a playoff series where Treliving felt he was going toe to toe with Ryan Kesler as arguably our best center in the series at ES, along with one of our top penalty killers. Troy Brouwer was expected to bounce back from a hand injury that had allegedly limited him the second half of 2017.

Going into the 2017-18 season the Flames considered themselves a very deep team and fans did too, and the biggest question mark was whether Ferland could continue to hang with the top line (which he did).

Let's not kid ourselves, what could go wrong did go wrong last year from the opening puck drop in Edmonton where Gulutzan defaulted to things that would expectedly not work on the bottom six, from Versteeg-Bennett-Brouwer to Matt Bartkowski to a love affair with Stajan-Brouwer on the penalty kill to Tanner Glass. This snowballed into Bennett generally losing his confidence (after being our best player in preseason), Versteeg being awkward and making brutal offensive zone giveaways every game (after looking like he had gotten quicker than the year prior during preseason suddenly he lost a step, probably related to the hip injury), Kulak being healthy scratched despite clearly being the best option as Stone's partner, etc. Even Jagr's arrival didn't help, at firdt due to conditioning, next as his shot was simply not going in and injuries kicked in, and finally due to injury. On the backend Hamonic couldn't hit the net when Brodie set him up while Stone needed Brodie setting him up but couldn't keep up in our top 4 defensively. 2/3rds of our right D underperformed as a result.Hamonic needed a partner who prefers to shoot (like Hanifin or Kulak) and Stone.. well I'd prefer to ship himboff for cap space but either way he needs someone setting him up for thr one time point shot (Kylington?) to maximize his shooting skill. Bennett's strong penalty killing went to waste too as Gulutzan fell in love with Jankowski-Hathaway and then didn't have the cajones to break up Stajan-Brouwer.

All this despite Bennett, Jagr, and Jankowski actually having stretches of outright dominance. Even Stajan played far worse early in the season than he did in the second half. Mangiapane never seemed to be put in a position to succeed and underperformed during his callup. Garnet Hathaway was overplayed and that was obvious even during his hot streak picking up assists while Janko and Bennett were still high on that Jagr Training but unacceptable when he went cold without an adjustment. Despite having a farm team that could score, callups seemed to lose all confidence and comfort playing up here, which is not the case elsewhere.

While not bottom six, Backlund also posted an unlucky season and Frolik's post-injury play was a write-off. Ferland also seemed to struggle after his return from injury against the preds.

At least part of all that was also systems related, as players tend to thrive off the rush and with defensemen jumping into the cycle and Gulutzan's systems were all about the cycle and with defensemen hugging their point positions.

Our depth underperformed. If they were the worst bottom six in the league, it was because nothing went their way. And yes, GG was a huge part of that. Tre signing Glass/Bartkowski, injuries to Jagr and Versteeg also contributed.
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