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Old 07-12-2018, 08:07 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by lazypucker View Post
Let's talk about another player.

Mark Giordano everyone agrees is a leader both on and off the ice. Model long-time Flames employee, very likely a 1-team man. So when he finishes his career in a few years, do you retire his number?
Hopefully he adds to his current record with some more playoff success as captain and makes the answer to that question clear before it ever really needs to be considered.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:18 AM   #102
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no. he's forever a flame.
Yup. FAF is so ridiculous. That being said unless he does some exceptional things in the next few years my answer to retiring his number is no. As of right now the only numbers that should be retired (not FAF) are 12 (if he is done) and 14.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:21 AM   #103
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I respect Theo, and I admire him.

But I don't like him.

Still, even I know he deserves to be honored. And yes the Flames need to drop the FAF gimmick and retire the numbers properly.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:24 AM   #104
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I am not sure about Giordano yet. I mean, if you look through the list of retired numbers (http://icehockey.wikia.com/wiki/List...etired_numbers) there is a commonality about Stanley Cups and Olympic medals or multiples of each, and failing that, they were with the team for a long time.



And if being an occasional jerk is enough to not get your number retired, well, how about Grant Fuhr?
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:06 PM   #105
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Great post.

It clearly comes down to leadership that is clearly out of touch, cheap, and apathetic to things like good design. It’s how they’ve been doing it for decades, so there seems to be no reason to change even though the tastes and expectations of fans have evolved immensely. It used to be that people consumed what they were given, but now with everyone being exposed to the entire world, it's easier to see what they are missing out on.

Design is a non-priority with the Flames. We saw it with CalgaryNext presentation, we see it with lacklustre jerseys, comically bad arena banners, etc…mediocrity is the norm.

I think this design apathy has been one of Ken King's biggest failings. I don’t expect things to change until guys like him are replaced.
By most accounts this is how CNRL operates as well.
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How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:18 PM   #106
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My previous opinions on this issue:

2013
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Can I also be the first one to say that who the eff cares what Theo was like, especially after the flames. While he was with the team he was the most prolific and important player to the franchise until Iginla and Kipper arrived.

Fleury should be retired and in the hall of fame based on what he did on the ice. He's top 60all time in points.

He has more goals than Doug Gilmore, Pavel Bure, Alex Kovalev, Owen Nolan, Brian Propp. Theo has more assists than Mike Gartner, Glenn Anderson, Alex Kovalev, Paul Kariya, Jarome Iginla, Frank Mahovlich, Martin St. Louis, and Joe Nieuwendyk.

29th all=time playoff points per game, last appearance in the playoffs scoring 17 points in 18 games, losing in the conference final in 7 games to the eventual Cup winning Dallas Stars.

Theo is 49th all-time in Points Per Game. Ahead of Mats Sundin who just got in as a first ballot hall of famer.

All Bolded are Hall of Famers.

Five international appearances for Canada in major tournaments, 1 Olympic Gold Medal as a significant contributor. He was integral in that 2002 Gold Medal.

Theo was never my favourite player, I wasn't terribly broken up when he was traded, but when he kept himself together on the ice, I enjoyed his game. He is not in the upper tier of the hall, but, he is at the top of the list of the next tier. In my opinion, the off-ice issues serve to bolster his hall credentials rather than draw from them, much like his size.

He should be in, The Hall and The Rafters.
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I'd be pissed too.

He got cut off a country club retirement home after outproducing some of the old tired country club residents. He was more right than he knew at the time, that team didn't even get to the first round.

He didn't look great, but wow, proof is in the pudding when conroy gets a spot on the team because he's buddies with Iginla and they make him retire midseason because he probably shouldn't have made the roster in the first place.

Nigel Dawes scored roughly 30 points that year. Fleury probably should have beat him for a roster spot.

This is all hindsight, but it appears as though for most of the conversation about his bad attitude is a) focused on recent things he's said, and b) not blowing smoke and shining up turds.

3 Months later, Darryl was gone, Conroy was retired, Calgary was out of it and Nigel Dawes was patrolling the second line wing position, with no flames player scoring 70 points that season.

Theo probably wasn't good enough to make the team, but so were other players on that roster who did make it.

Is it really coming down to 'if Fleury spoke in meaningless platitudes and showed zero emotion his number would be retired"? That's 'effing stupid.
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Fleury should have his number retired before Nieuwendyk has his honoured.

Absolute embarrassment for me as a Flames fan how the organization disregards Theo's contributions to the organization.
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Fleury's numbers and accomplishments on the ice for the organization should drown out near anything fleury has to say with his mouth.

The organization should show their maturity and rightfully honour the player who was the organization for many years, until the arrival of iginla.
As an organization the Flames make it pretty freakin' difficult to be a fan of theirs.
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How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:20 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by lazypucker View Post
Let's talk about another player.

Mark Giordano everyone agrees is a leader both on and off the ice. Model long-time Flames employee, very likely a 1-team man. So when he finishes his career in a few years, do you retire his number?
Candidly, unless he wins us a cup, then no. He's not good enough.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:12 PM   #108
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Candidly, unless he wins us a cup, then no. He's not good enough.
Win a Cup with the Flames or without the Flames?
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:22 PM   #109
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Fash Walken sums it up pretty well. After 108 posts, not a single one presents a persuasive reason for Fleury not to be formally acknowledged in front of Flames fans.

As others have said, it says much more about the organization than it does about him.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:07 PM   #110
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Fash Walken sums it up pretty well. After 108 posts, not a single one presents a persuasive reason for Fleury not to be formally acknowledged in front of Flames fans.

As others have said, it says much more about the organization than it does about him.
Because those who own the franchise, and have owned the franchise since inception and some who have since passed, have first had knowledge and awareness of how they stood up for him time and again and again, putting thier own personal reputations on the line, and him and his ego failed them, time and again,along with showing no respect or humility.

Of course this isn't about on ice stats or on ice play. It's also not a couple incidents where he got out of line. It was a constant struggle.

His battles with addiction, supported by the Flames organization bending over backward, tirades against fellow players and coaches, and over and over having the owners having to keep things quiet when Theo goes off.

When he left, crapped all over the owners and players with no humility. He goes to NYC where he doesn't have that protection, and falls further into the abyss. Gets assigned a chaperone (which he probably had here, just a lot quieter, along with some friendly CP's officers that would help out the Flames) into a fight at a strip club with his team appointed chaperone when with the Hawks.

And no gratitude, ever, playing days or not.ever thought he was paid enough or recognized enough by the team, coaches, players.

Year and years later, the Flames then finally relent and reinstate him out of his league imposed suspension from Chicago, so he could get a NHL pension, and reluctantly let him suit up Ike a side show in preseason. Months later he rips that same team with the disillusion that he would be a better fit.

That wasn't a new shocking outburst, it was just one that managed to get out, unlike all the other crapping he did on his teammates and franchise when here, and which got him in trouble on the team. It was just par for the course.

This day and age his issues couldn't be hidden from the public eye. The team doesn't have the same control of the press they did, and the media spotlight is 1000x brighter., especially when travelling now. Duha talked about the reporters sitting at the front of the bus so they didn't have to talk with an drunk and obnoxious Fleury. Everyone knew he was drunk but no way did the beat writers let that out if they wanted to keep their position.

Theo talks about Gaudreau not making it in his day, well, he wouldn't be anywhere near the NHL with the way the development system has evolved, off ice training in the years leading up to draft year, nevermind the increased awareness of substance abuse and programs that he would be in awhile in junior, which would prevent him from being on a big league roster.

Only a few people know all the stories, but Theo has no one else to blame. It's nice to be nostalgic and wipe away some of the bad things with the emergence of time, but I guarantee, the people that had to deal with him in the 90s to keep him happy, keep the team from falling apart due to his antics, to keep this guy from falling onto a very dark place himself, and keep himself on the right side of the law, will never forget the stress he caused them day in and day out. Nevermind he loss of his on ice talent, people at the top of the organization have not and will not forget all the thing he said and did to constantly make himself the centre of attention and force the organization and owners personally to diffuse situations that he got himself and indirectly the team and the organization, into...and his bitterness never really, underneath his odd praise of the team, gone away.

His jersey not being worn again is a nod from the team to his on ice accomplishment while wearing it. A ceremony to officially retire that means more, if to just the owners, who pay the bills and had to deal with th guy, as to being a great teammate, person in the community, and Ambassador of the team, at the very least. Theo falls well short of that distinction, again, from those that have been associated with the clubs for his team here and before.

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Old 07-12-2018, 09:22 PM   #111
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Retiring a jersey is the highest level of honor a team can bestow on a former player.

Why the heck do you give that kind of honor to a player who was never a good team mate, nor a good alumni?
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:48 PM   #112
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Thanks for the post Browna and I have no doubt that Fleury was a jerk. Maybe he still is. I don't really care.

It is a shame that he crapped on his teammates and needed to be the center of attention.
And it is a shame the owners feel slighted and/or hold a grudge.

But I'm not suggesting his number be retired because he was a nice guy or because the owners liked him. It's to honor his on ice accomplishments and the memories he created for the fans. And he made the owners a buck or two along the way too.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:59 PM   #113
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Hey browna. Maybe think of what your life
Would have been like if the guy with all the power over your future molested you that many times, especially in the culture of the time.In your righteous anger about how he treated the flames your forgetting he is a product of the abuse.

You slso seem to have forgotten your humanity.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:05 PM   #114
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Hey browna. Maybe think of what your life
Would have been like if the guy with all the power over your future molested you that many times, especially in the culture of the time.In your righteous anger about how he treated the flames your forgetting he is a product of the abuse.

You slso seem to have forgotten your humanity.
Yes I've lost my humanity.

He's come out on the other side in life, so great for him. It wasn't looking good there for a while at the end of the career.

But this is a jersey retirement thread, and getting through and battling his hardships on an ongoing basis doesn't mean he is entitiled for a jersey retirement from the employer where he directed and still directs his anger and frustration, and likely hurt or had faith lost in him by a lot of people over the years who just wanted to help him.

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Old 07-12-2018, 10:15 PM   #115
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Thanks for the post Browna and I have no doubt that Fleury was a jerk. Maybe he still is. I don't really care.

It is a shame that he crapped on his teammates and needed to be the center of attention.
And it is a shame the owners feel slighted and/or hold a grudge.

But I'm not suggesting his number be retired because he was a nice guy or because the owners liked him. It's to honor his on ice accomplishments and the memories he created for the fans. And he made the owners a buck or two along the way too.

I understand where coming from but as I said, no other player wearing the jersey is that subtle nod to on ice accomplishments. A jersey retirement to theae owners, is indicative of something more.

And recall, we had one of the most respected, caring and well liked owners in Harley Hotchkiss, who was around all of Theo's career here, and died 8 years after Theo retired, who would've obviously had strong input back then into retiring Theo's number.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:27 PM   #116
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Yes I've lost my humanity.

He's come out on the other side in life, so great for him. It wasn't looking good there for a while at the end of the career.

But this is a jersey retirement thread, and getting through and battling his hardships on an ongoing basis doesn't mean he is entitiled for a jersey retirement from the employer where he directed and still directs his anger and frustration, and likely hurt or had faith lost in him by a lot of people over the years who just wanted to help him.
Is a jersey retirement about satisfying the Flames as an employer or about the Flames as an organization satisfying the fans as their market? Personally, I don't really care who was employee of the month for the Flames as a business.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:13 PM   #117
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I haven't been a big fan of the "Forever a Flame" stuff. I believe the only things that should be hung from the rafters are retired jerseys and team accomplishments (Stanley Cup Banners, President's Trophies, etc).


What I would think would be kind of cool to see as a fan is something like a "Hall of Flames" - kind of like a hall of fame. When a team honors you, they hang a framed life-size photo of you in a specific hall, along with your accomplishments as a Flame at the bottom. Of course retired jersey players should also be included here. Maybe instead of a portrait, you frame a game-worn jersey here, or something like that.


I think in this way you celebrate a player's accomplishments in the organization, but you aren't sort of mimicking a jersey retirement by hanging something up in the rafters. It always feels like a half-measure to me raising a 'Forever a Flame' banner.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:26 PM   #118
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FAF is a joke of a program. Theo is age 50 one of very best Flames statistically period. The second best forward only behind Iggy.
Theo played on some great Flames teams & was the crowd draw when they were garbage.
He deserves much better than how the Flames upper management should get their heads out of their collective asses, take the high road and listen to the fans for once & retire a hockey legend.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:27 PM   #119
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He was a dickhead when he played. No argument.

He was extraordinarily successful as a player. And the dickhead part is absolutely excused by the abuse he suffered. Especially now with the work he’s done to try to come back.

The Flames now appear petty, cheap, and vindictive by not having already done it. Good on Boomer to stir the pot a little. As a life long fan, I’m happy the Flames are FINALLY being called out on it.

Swallow your hurt feelings about being a pathetic also ran for most of the man’s career and retire the damn number already.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:28 AM   #120
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When Theo was a Flame pretty close to every young kid wanted and wore a #14 jersey.
The Flames seem to have forgotten how overwhelmingly popular of a Flames player Theo was and how much $$$ they made off of his play on the ice. For several years he was the face of the franchise.
Meanwhile they knew Theo would get drunk and wasted just to play through the pain of Crohn's Disease.
But hey as long as he would keep scoring goals and putting bums in seats all was good in their eyes.
But what I find most shameful of the Flames is when Theo came public about being molested as a teenager and that the result was directly related to his every day trying to drown his demons with alcohol and drugs. That he he had damn good valid reasons why his life away from hockey was a massive struggle.Yet through it all he performed at an elite level for the Flames.
Their lack of respect is petty and small towards Theo especially what he went through yet still did for the Flames season after season for 11 years.
Theo has on the record saying the Flames knew and when he was on the ice that was only thing time I was able to forget.
Seriously shame on anyone in the Flames organization that has been denying Fleury having his number retired.
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