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Old 07-05-2018, 06:53 PM   #41
Jiri Hrdina
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I also don't think it is a given that they accept a favorable Hathaway judgement. With the new depth, his place on the team is shaky at best.
If I were his agent I'd be advising to take any 1 way deal that is offered.
Otherwise he could find himself out of the NHL altogether.
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Old 07-05-2018, 06:57 PM   #42
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How do people come to the conclusion that Brouwer is "fine" in a specific role? He was given powerplay time, significantly more minutes than other players in the bottom six and better linemates than other players in the bottom six but still failed to produce and had terrible possession numbers.

If anything, we can conclude he will be severely worse given less minutes. What player in the history of hockey made improvements when demoted?
Sigh - again with the narrative. He was taken right off the PP in November, given a couple games in December and then taken right off again. He never got back on on any regular basis until late March, when everything was fal;ling apart anyway.

His TOI was 13:56. That would be below Bennett, and just slightly more than Jankowski, Versteeg and Jagr. Not significantly more than those bottom six guys. I'm not sure who you think should have gotten more - Lazar? Stajan? Hathaway? He was below Foo and Shore as well FWIW.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:03 PM   #43
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How do people come to the conclusion that Brouwer is "fine" in a specific role? He was given powerplay time, significantly more minutes than other players in the bottom six and better linemates than other players in the bottom six but still failed to produce and had terrible possession numbers.

If anything, we can conclude he will be severely worse given less minutes. What player in the history of hockey made improvements when demoted?

It is not about making improvements or getting him to score more goals. Of course with reduced TOI and opportunity, his stats will negatively affected. Of course.


What people are saying is that Brouwer was fine as a 4th liner, but underwhelming whenever Gulutzan played him above that, especially on the PP. As a 4th liner, Brouwer is a fairly decent player who stood up for a few team mates over the last couple of seasons, and played fairly strong defence.



Nobody is expecting an increase in goals playing STRICTLY off the 4th line.


As for the RFAs today, remember that this has nothing to do with how negotiations are going. This is a safety mechanism for all of them to ensure that they make available an agreed-upon tool. If they didn't file, and then suddenly negotiations went south, they would not be able to use arbitration to remedy a contract impasse. So nobody freak out.



Also, Treliving was a very busy body traveling and trying to sign these UFAs, and he had stated that the focus will now shift to the RFAs. I would be surprised if any actually end up in arbitration.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:04 PM   #44
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I don’t agree with this even slightly. Even at a million dollars a year, 6 goals is not good enough. He was a mediocre at beat penalty killer. His effort was pathetic. He brought down every line he played on. He spent considerable time on the top powerplay unit with Gaudreau and Monahan and only managed 5 points on the PP.

Tory Brouwer was brutal, even on a league minimum contract. There is not enough hyperbole in the world to describe how awful Brouwer is. He is an absolute embarrassment to the Flames and the city.
Take your foot off the drama pedal. That’s a bit personal. Is he everything the Flames wanted on the ice, far from it. Embarrassment to the team and the city, please. That’s simply not true.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:12 PM   #45
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As for the RFAs today, remember that this has nothing to do with how negotiations are going. This is a safety mechanism for all of them to ensure that they make available an agreed-upon tool. If they didn't file, and then suddenly negotiations went south, they would not be able to use arbitration to remedy a contract impasse. So nobody freak out.



Also, Treliving was a very busy body traveling and trying to sign these UFAs, and he had stated that the focus will now shift to the RFAs. I would be surprised if any actually end up in arbitration.
Agreed. The league needs to go through the process of making sure the arbitrators and dates are scheduled during that window, so players that are eligible, need to decide if they was that tool available.

There is no reason to think that contracts won't get worked out in the meantime. And it has no bearing on the relationship between the players and team. It does guarantee that they will all be signed in time for camp, which is great.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:13 PM   #46
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Can someone confirm when the buyout window is available? Is it before training camp, or after? Before the start of the regular season, or after?
According to the CBA, it is: "48 hours beginning on the third day after Club's last salary arbitration award or settlement".

It all depends on when your final arbitration case is completed (whether you went to an arbitration ruling or not). The cases will be scheduled between July 20 and August 4. If your final case was scheduled for the 4th and that was the day it was resolved, the third day would be the 7th and the buyout window would be open for 48 hours from the 7th to the 9th.

That's the absolute latest the second window could be opened.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:14 PM   #47
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Brouwer has been playing like he signed his best contract and he doesn't care. Two years straight. His attitude is the best reason to buy him out and wipe your hands of his smug mug.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:18 PM   #48
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I also don't think it is a given that they accept a favorable Hathaway judgement. With the new depth, his place on the team is shaky at best.
If I were his agent I'd be advising to take any 1 way deal that is offered.
Otherwise he could find himself out of the NHL altogether.
A team can only walk away from an arbitration award over a certain amount (at the start of the CBA, it was $3.5 million, but it adjusts upward with the cap, so I'm not sure what it is this year -- CapFriendly says it's $4,222,941).

There's no way Hathaway will be getting an award anywhere close to that, so the Flames won't be able to walk away.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:20 PM   #49
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Brouwer has been playing like he signed his best contract and he doesn't care. Two years straight. His attitude is the best reason to buy him out and wipe your hands of his smug mug.
None of this is likely accurate.

Brouwer's skills have eroded, but there is nothing to suggest he's been "smug" or has a bad attitude.

There is nothing to suggest he's a bad teammate.

He's not playing good, to be sure, but the effort is there.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:27 PM   #50
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That's 4 guys we count on. Thats rough no matter how you slice it. Need to sign them. Hathaway can go.

Brouwer has been given a lot and has failed. Even as a 4th liner. At no point was he ever good here, big paycheck or not. He flat out sucked. Time to let him go. Looks like we are in cap troubles.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:37 PM   #51
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Best guess Lindholm, Jankowski, Rittich all get done prior to Arbitration. I am surprised Lindholms camp made this move though, be patient the deal will get done guy it's a main priority. No need for pushing an ugly arbitration session.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:50 PM   #52
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For people worried, arbitration is a very regular happening for RFAs. It doesn't mean that it will come to that. These are other examples of top players having settlements after filing for arbitration, but prior to hearing.

2018 - Jenner
2017 - Granlund, Palat, Parayko, Zibanejad, Hellebuyck
2016 - Schenn, Schwartz, Kreider, JT Miller, Jarnkrok
2015 - Nyquist, Stepan, Haula
2014 - Zuccarello, Kreider, Franson, Ekholm
2013 - Muzzin, Martinez, Little, Wheeler, Zuccarello, Bogosian

Many of these players are still with their teams and are an integral part. Nothing to panic or worry about.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:56 PM   #53
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Best guess Lindholm, Jankowski, Rittich all get done prior to Arbitration. I am surprised Lindholms camp made this move though, be patient the deal will get done guy it's a main priority. No need for pushing an ugly arbitration session.
Triggering arbitration retains what little leverage RFAs have
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Old 07-05-2018, 08:16 PM   #54
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Triggering arbitration retains what little leverage RFAs have
Sure I get that, im not worried. I would think it also sets in motion a stronger incentive for both parties GM & the agent alike to get the deal done prior to the arbitration date.
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Old 07-05-2018, 08:17 PM   #55
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That's 4 guys we count on. Thats rough no matter how you slice it. Need to sign them. Hathaway can go...
Why is it, though? To me this is just part of doing business in the NHL. When players have played long enough to trigger their arbitration rights they very often do so. I wouldn't read anything into this news beyond just that—players exercising their RFA rights to help ensure the best deal.
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Old 07-05-2018, 08:33 PM   #56
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Suck it up for another year if Brouwer. That cap space might come in handy when this team is competing for Lord Stanley in 3 years.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:01 PM   #57
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It is not about making improvements or getting him to score more goals. Of course with reduced TOI and opportunity, his stats will negatively affected. Of course.


What people are saying is that Brouwer was fine as a 4th liner, but underwhelming whenever Gulutzan played him above that, especially on the PP. As a 4th liner, Brouwer is a fairly decent player who stood up for a few team mates over the last couple of seasons, and played fairly strong defence.



Nobody is expecting an increase in goals playing STRICTLY off the 4th line.


As for the RFAs today, remember that this has nothing to do with how negotiations are going. This is a safety mechanism for all of them to ensure that they make available an agreed-upon tool. If they didn't file, and then suddenly negotiations went south, they would not be able to use arbitration to remedy a contract impasse. So nobody freak out.



Also, Treliving was a very busy body traveling and trying to sign these UFAs, and he had stated that the focus will now shift to the RFAs. I would be surprised if any actually end up in arbitration.
Yeah I'm not worried about the arbitrations.

I think if Brouwer isn't going to improve (in all likelihood, that's the case), then it's better to give his ice time to someone who:

1) Needs more NHL ice time, such as Mangiapane
2) Might improve at the NHL level, such as Lazar
3) Can handle the role just as well, if not better, but could serve as a long term depth Flame, such as Hathaway

I think every Flames fan agrees Brouwer is not in the Flames long term vision. So why delay the inevitable, perhaps burning a bridge or development opportunity for a younger or better player along the way?
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:04 PM   #58
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Considering the salary they have brought on (or will considering the contracts due and further moves they wish to make) since the last window closed I think its almost a certainty that Brouwer is bought out this go around. Just for the flexibility it creates.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:14 PM   #59
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Brouwer was building a house in Calgary regardless and is by all accounts a great person, and a Calgarian.

However, he is playing like he is very comfortable and shows no signs of hunger out there. It’s Glencross all over again. Except the Flames actually had Glencross when he was a good hockey player.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:17 PM   #60
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Yeah I'm not worried about the arbitrations.

I think if Brouwer isn't going to improve (in all likelihood, that's the case), then it's better to give his ice time to someone who:

1) Needs more NHL ice time, such as Mangiapane
2) Might improve at the NHL level, such as Lazar
3) Can handle the role just as well, if not better, but could serve as a long term depth Flame, such as Hathaway

I think every Flames fan agrees Brouwer is not in the Flames long term vision. So why delay the inevitable, perhaps burning a bridge or development opportunity for a younger or better player along the way?

1) Mangiapane (and other top 6 type prospects) shouldn't be developing on the 4th line. Slot them into a position to succeed, or keep them in the AHL and succeeding in that role.
2) I agree that Lazar should play ahead of Brouwer for the reasons you outlined.
3) Hathaway offers more speed, but that's about it. Brouwer is a better defensive player, and if it means that we lose Hathaway next season, that's ok too. Hathaway maybe has more upside than Brouwer right now, but he is also turning 27 in November. I am not sure he will get to the point that Brouwer is now, at least not defensively, and offensively it is probably a wash. He just adds more speed and plays the pest role better, while Brouwer is much better at making plays and has much better defensive awareness. I think the Flames can afford to lose both, quite honestly.


Again, I think that Brouwer in a strictly 4th line role probably helps the Flames win more than helps them lose, and I especially like him in a 13th forward type role. With that being said, he could very well turn his game around under a new coach and become closer to the player that he was immediately before joining the Flames. I think the bottom 6 last year wasn't as weak as it is seems, and feel that the system made it more difficult for less-talented individuals to hit the scoresheet. I doubt he turns it around to be honest, but it wouldn't shock me if he did considering how consistent he was right up until the day he showed up in Calgary.
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