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Old 04-20-2018, 12:22 PM   #41
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4th line is sometimes a great shelter to actually increase confidence and build offensive skill. Some player thrive offensively in that role - Jooris for example.
This is a huge fallacy. Quality of teammate has far more impact on offensive production and confidence than quality of competition. A player is more sheltered playing shutdown minutes with a strong line mate or partner (i.e. when Hamilton plays with Giordano or Chara) than they are playing soft minutes with a weak linemate or partner (i.e. Hamilton with every other partner he's ever had). It's just as true for forwards.
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Old 04-20-2018, 12:27 PM   #42
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Hamilton for Nylander

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland

I think injuries and a bad PP hurt this line more than anything

Tkachuk - Backlund - Nylander

Bennett - Jankowski - Frolik

I wouldn't be opposed to putting those 9 in a blender. Lots of interesting combinations.

Lazar - Shore - Hathaway


Gio - Brodie

Then just make the bottom 4 work. Hamonic, Stone, Kulak, Andersson, and maybe Valimaki. The pieces are there.
If Ferland is 1st line RW, I'm taking next year off.
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Old 04-20-2018, 12:32 PM   #43
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If Ferland is 1st line RW, I'm taking next year off.
LOL. So if we acquired Nylander to greatly bolster RW youíd stop watching just because heís not technically on the 1st line?

Bizarre take.

Ferland at RW was not the problem. Not having a second scoring line was the problem. The 1st line was fine last year. We didnít even have a legitimate second scoring line, that was the problem. Crazy how some people just fixate on who plays RW with Gaudreau/Monahan when not having another scoring line was quite clearly the problem
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Old 04-20-2018, 12:59 PM   #44
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LOL. So if we acquired Nylander to greatly bolster RW youíd stop watching just because heís not technically on the 1st line?

Bizarre take.

Ferland at RW was not the problem. Not having a second scoring line was the problem. The 1st line was fine last year. We didnít even have a legitimate second scoring line, that was the problem. Crazy how some people just fixate on who plays RW with Gaudreau/Monahan when not having another scoring line was quite clearly the problem
Ferland is not consistent enough to be on the 1st line...we've learned that the last 2 years.
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:02 PM   #45
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Ferland is not consistent enough to be on the 1st line...we've learned that the last 2 years.
No we really havenít. The 1st line all had career years. Ferland has a rough stretch coming back after injury but the 1st line was not the problem last year.

We didnít even really have a second line. That was quite clearly the problem. We had a 1st line and two 3rd lines, one of which failed.
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:08 PM   #46
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Ferland + Rittich/Gillies to MTL for Gallagher
Stone for Pick/Prospect

Johnny-Money-Gallagher
Tkachuk-Jankowski-Bennett/Foo
Frolik-Backlund-Foo/Bennett
Lazar-Shore-Brouwer

Gio-Hamilton
Valimaki-Hamonic
Kulak/Andersson-Brodie
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:08 PM   #47
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And because he was going back to junior.
Playing him on the fourth line at 20 is ruining his development.
This is out-dated thinking. The 4th line in today's NHL isn't just pluggers.

If he looks as good or better in camp this September and there's some depth added to the top lines,

Dube - Shore - Lazar
Dube - Jankowski - Lazar


are the types of lines that would allow him to flourish.

You're stuck in a rational from ten years ago. The league is getting younger and younger.

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Old 04-20-2018, 01:10 PM   #48
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And because he was going back to junior.
Playing him on the fourth line at 20 is ruining his development.
Nope. You give him limited exposure to start, then work him into more ice time as they get more comfortable in the NHL game. You don't throw him the wolves, expect him to be a glossy upstart with huge numbers. That's how you ruin players and set up themselves, coaching, GM's and fans for disappointment.

Unless you are a Connor McDavid or Austin Matthews, you need to play sheltered minutes and take a slower progression into the NHL. No need to rush.
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:11 PM   #49
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LOL. So if we acquired Nylander to greatly bolster RW youíd stop watching just because heís not technically on the 1st line?

Bizarre take.

Ferland at RW was not the problem. Not having a second scoring line was the problem. The 1st line was fine last year. We didnít even have a legitimate second scoring line, that was the problem. Crazy how some people just fixate on who plays RW with Gaudreau/Monahan when not having another scoring line was quite clearly the problem
True. The top line can only score one goal at a time and they can only be on the ice so much. Last season looks a lot different if Backlund and Frolik have production more like the year before or if Jankowski/Bennett/Jagr/Hathaway/Versteeg works better. I think treliving was counting on 15-20 goals each out of Bennett, Frolik and Jagr. Bennett was the best, with 11. Jagr had 1 (pro-rated at 4).
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:19 PM   #50
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This is a huge fallacy. Quality of teammate has far more impact on offensive production and confidence than quality of competition. A player is more sheltered playing shutdown minutes with a strong line mate or partner (i.e. when Hamilton plays with Giordano or Chara) than they are playing soft minutes with a weak linemate or partner (i.e. Hamilton with every other partner he's ever had). It's just as true for forwards.
It's not a huge fallacy that good scorers often cut their teeth on the bottom six line when they break into the league, without "destroying their offensive instincts". You are talking about players in general, I'm talking about a rookie. What line did Fleury play on when they called him up? Gaudreau?
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:21 PM   #51
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If Ferland is 1st line RW, I'm taking next year off.
Why?

This team didn't fail because Gaudreau, Monahan, Ferland was our 1st line.
This team didn't fail because Tkachuk, Backlund, Frolik was our 2nd line.

This team failed mainly because Bennett, Jankowski, Brouwer, Stajan, Lazar, Versteeg, Jagr, Hathaway and any of our close to NHL ready prospects failed to provide the team with any semblance of consistent depth scoring for one reason or another.

Flat out, the bottom two lines mostly sucked.
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:51 PM   #52
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This team didn't fail because Tkachuk, Backlund, Frolik was our 2nd line.
I think it contributed to us failing. I think Frolik is best suited as an elite 3rd line two-way shut down guy. And frankly I think Backlund is best suited for that as well. I think on a contending team that is where those guys would ideally slot.

Jankowski was a rookie so I understand why you might work him in slowly. Bennett maybe didn't earn a top two line role. But the only way the team last year was going to contend is if we got depth scoring. And Bennett-Jankowski-Hathaway was never going to be another scoring line. But if you sprinkle Bennett and Jankowski throughout the lineup with the veterans there's a chance they succeed and actually put up some numbers.

Last summer I was calling for Tkachuk to be moved off that line in order to drive his own line and spread out of the offence. Instead they stacked the top two lines which IMO contributed to why the 3rd line failed. Backlund and Frolik ended up playing more like elite 3rd liners (which is what I think they are) and therefore all the lines outside the 1st line underperformed.

Tkachuk-Jankowski-Bennett might've worked.

Spreading out the young guys might've been the best strategy.

Tkachuk-Monahan-Bennett
Gaudreau-Jankowski-Ferland
Frolik-Backlund-Brouwer/Versteeg/Lazar

Sure there would've been some growing pains with that kind of lineup. But the upside was to have two scoring lines and an elite shutdown line. Instead Glen put Bennett and Jankowski in a really hard place to succeed by having to carry their own line instead of being a complimentary skilled player to two more veteran skilled guys.

Be interesting to see if the next coach tries some different combos.

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Old 04-20-2018, 02:00 PM   #53
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Ferland at RW was not the problem. Not having a second scoring line was the problem. The 1st line was fine last year. We didn’t even have a legitimate second scoring line, that was the problem. Crazy how some people just fixate on who plays RW with Gaudreau/Monahan when not having another scoring line was quite clearly the problem
Pretty much this.

The NHL is not about putting your top 3 forwards on the 1st line and your next 3 best on the 2nd line. Most teams today are built around pairings, with the top six forwards split up in three pairs on three lines.

Ferland on the Gaudreau-Monahan line is fine. He plays a role, he can shoot the puck and he doesn't hurt the two more skilled guys. If the Flames do pick up a skilled RW, it would be far better to put him on another line to substantially boost its scoring rather than only marginally improve a line that's already very, very good.
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:03 PM   #54
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I think it's gonna look like one of these scenarios. If we bring in a new Centre - Jankowski out. If we bring in new RW Bennett gone.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-NEW CENTRE-Bennett
Dube-Backlund-Frolik
Klimchuk-Shore-Foo

Up and Down: Hathaway/Shinkaruk/Lazar

Gone through Trade or otherwise: Jankowski, Brouwer, Brodie, Lazar

Or

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-Jankowski-NEW RW
Dube-Backlund-Frolik
Klimchuk-Shore-Foo

Up and down Hathway/Shinkaruk/Lazar

Gone through Trade or otherwise: Bennett, Brouwer, Brodie

Defense:

Gio-Hamilton
Valimaki-Hamonic
Kulak-Andersson

Goalies:
Smith
Gillies
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:13 PM   #55
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Pretty much this.

The NHL is not about putting your top 3 forwards on the 1st line and your next 3 best on the 2nd line. Most teams today are built around pairings, with the top six forwards split up in three pairs on three lines.

Ferland on the Gaudreau-Monahan line is fine. He plays a role, he can shoot the puck and he doesn't hurt the two more skilled guys. If the Flames do pick up a skilled RW, it would be far better to put him on another line to substantially boost its scoring rather than only marginally improve a line that's already very, very good.
Exactly this. Loading up on one line may win games, but it doesn't win championships... depth does. It's the reason why teams like Vegas and the Pens are so good. Putting guys like Sid, Geno and Thrill on different lines is way more dangerous than if they're on one line.
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:53 PM   #56
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Out: Hamilton
In: Mantha, 1st (from LVG)

Out: Bennett, Jankowski, Fox
In: O'Reilly, 2nd


Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-ROR-Mantha
Dube-Backlund-Frolik
Brouwer-Shore-Foo
Extra: Lazar

Gio-Hamonic
Brodie-Stone
Kulak-Andersson

Smith
Gillies
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.

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Old 04-20-2018, 02:56 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Out: Hamilton
In: Mantha

Out: Bennett, Jankowski, Fox
In: O'Reilly, 2nd


Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-ROR-Mantha
Dube-Backlund-Frolik
Brouwer-Shore-Foo
Extra: Lazar

Gio-Hamonic
Brodie-Stone
Kulak-Andersson

Smith
Gillies
Hamilton straight up for Mantha?? Jesus that is terrible.
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:59 PM   #58
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Out: Hamilton
In: Mantha

You'd trade a top 2 24 year old Dman who scores 45-50 points a year for a 23 year old winger who got 48 points?

Detroit has to add and Calgary has a huge hole, that's not being filled by Hamonic.
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:59 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Out: Hamilton
In: Mantha, 1st (from LVG)

Out: Bennett, Jankowski, Fox
In: O'Reilly, 2nd


Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-ROR-Mantha
Dube-Backlund-Frolik
Brouwer-Shore-Foo
Extra: Lazar

Gio-Hamonic
Brodie-Stone
Kulak-Andersson

Smith
Gillies
You must be trolling...
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:59 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Out: Hamilton
In: Mantha

Out: Bennett, Jankowski, Fox
In: O'Reilly, 2nd


Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-ROR-Mantha
Dube-Backlund-Frolik
Brouwer-Shore-Foo
Extra: Lazar

Gio-Hamonic
Brodie-Stone
Kulak-Andersson

Smith
Gillies
What???

24 year old 6'6 top pairing defenseman with 45 points

for

23 year old left shooting winger with 48 points?

Not a chance
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