A Game of Thrones **BOOKS OFF LIMITS** v2

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

That was a great episode. Everything moved along very quickly, but at the same time it is just build up for the more dramatic acts to come. This is still moving pieces into place.

This season seems super rushed. It's like they are trying to cram everything and tie off everything in fewer scenes and episodes. It actually feels rather disappointing.

[JFK]

Originally Posted by chemgear

This season seems super rushed. It's like they are trying to cram everything and tie off everything in fewer scenes and episodes. It actually feels rather disappointing.

Too funny. Read some complaints last week about how slow it felt.

I loved last nights episodes.

Laughed out loud at Euron's taunting of Jamie, finger in the bum
Cried at the Stark reunion.
Was in Awe of Jon and The Queen of Many Titles finally meeting.

Last scene and the admittance of Joffrey's murder was amazing. Would have liked to see Jamie slice her down after that though.

And Tinordi ? RTS cut scene? God you're such a nerdy goober.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

It happens to every show. Mad Men and The Sopranos are two that come to mind. First they were critic darlings, then they were the "you have to watch this" show and then when they were on top it became cool to slag them all the time and talk about how they used to be good. Same basic trajectory most musical acts go through. .

Sometimes groundbreaking seasons that push a show to the top just set expectations that aren't realistic.

Writing a satisfying conclusion is always the hard part. Once you have a great show, it's pretty easy to string things along for a while when everyone wants to know what's going to happen next. Coming up with an ending that doesn't totally f things up is the hard part. Good examples would be Breaking Bad and the Wire. An example of a show with an awful ending is Lost.

[Fuzz]

What are the chances Sam finds the info he needs in all those scrolls he was given to copy? I'm going with "highly likely".

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What are the chances Sam finds the info he needs in all those scrolls he was given to copy? I'm going with "highly likely".

I bet one is called "hey samwell tarly, here's how to defeat the white walkers" by maester convenience.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What are the chances Sam finds the info he needs in all those scrolls he was given to copy? I'm going with "highly likely".

Naw....I think the writers will devout 20 minutes of screen time to Sam copying documents that have no significance whatsoever to the plot. The scene will feature, broken twill pens, him running out of ink, taking bathroom breaks, making grammatical mistakes and having to restart several manuscripts, the head maester chastising him for his sloppy handwriting, etc...

Seriously though, I think the head Maester is in on it. He has a mandate that prevents him from explicitly helping Sam, but he realizes something is up and will steer Sam in the right direction. So it won't be an accident that these manuscripts contain directly relevant information.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by blankall

Naw....I think the writers will devout 20 minutes of screen time to Sam copying documents that have no significance whatsoever to the plot. The scene will feature, broken twill pens, him running out of ink, taking bathroom breaks, making grammatical mistakes and having to restart several manuscripts, the head maester chastising him for his sloppy handwriting, etc...

Seriously though, I think the head Maester is in on it. He has a mandate that prevents him from explicitly helping Sam, but he realizes something is up and will steer Sam in the right direction. So it won't be an accident that these manuscripts contain directly relevant information.

What would stop him from just explicitly helping Sam?

[Tinordi]

Seriously, that closing sequence was just so bad. So bad!

Lannisters siege Riverrun for goodness knows how long yet they storm and take one of the seven great castles of Westeros I in a day? Meanwhile, the Tyrrells are explained to be poor fighters yet they were the decisive factor in the battle of blackwater Bay.

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Seriously, that closing sequence was just so bad. So bad!

Lannisters siege Riverrun for goodness knows how long yet they storm and take one of the seven great castles of Westeros I in a day? Meanwhile, the Tyrrells are explained to be poor fighters yet they were the decisive factor in the battle of blackwater Bay.

Disagree, loved how Jamie used Robb's tactic on his enemies and Olanna went out like a bad ass.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

What would stop him from just explicitly helping Sam?

Maesters are meant to follow a code and refrain from any kind of allegiances. They can record, teach, and heal, but aren't supposed to be more involved. They also put science over magic. For Sam to be ignoring his training in favor of finding a way to defeat some unconfirmed magical being would be outside of his mandate.

I get the impression that Maester Ebrose suspects something is up with the white walkers. He didn't expel him for helping Jorah, as he knows that Jorah has a role to play in that conflict.

The whole thing supports the argument that Sam is a "Mary Sue" for Martin himself.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Jbo

Disagree, loved how Jamie used Robb's tactic on his enemies and Olanna went out like a bad ass.

To me it just tarnishes the world by insinuating that everyone is an incompetent military commander. Jeez, sure would have been useful to have those dragons at Casterly Rock to annihilate Euron's fleet. Why did Dany hold them back? Why was it not blindingly obvious that Cersei would march on Highgarden? To what, WHAT, strategic value does Casterly Rock have to Danaerys have besides provoking Cersei? The unsullied are her best troops, why dispatch them to the other side of the continent for a vanity attack? How is Euron Greyjoy seemingly everywhere in Westeros? How did Varys, lord of the spies, not receive word that the Lannisters were marching on Highgarden? It's a huge army? How did he not receive world that Randyll Tarly was mustering?

Just idiotic writing.

And the best is yet to come, apparently, nobody has thought of using a ballista to kill a dragon before. That's the worst, more telegraphed foreshadowing of what's to come. A dragon dies from a stupid oversized crossbow.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

To me it just tarnishes the world by insinuating that everyone is an incompetent military commander. Jeez, sure would have been useful to have those dragons at Casterly Rock to annihilate Euron's fleet. Why did Dany hold them back? Why was it not blindingly obvious that Cersei would march on Highgarden? To what, WHAT, strategic value does Casterly Rock have to Danaerys have besides provoking Cersei? The unsullied are her best troops, why dispatch them to the other side of the continent for a vanity attack? How is Euron Greyjoy seemingly everywhere in Westeros? How did Varys, lord of the spies, not receive word that the Lannisters were marching on Highgarden? It's a huge army? How did he not receive world that Randyll Tarly was mustering?

Just idiotic writing.

And the best is yet to come, apparently, nobody has thought of using a ballista to kill a dragon before. That's the worst, more telegraphed foreshadowing of what's to come. A dragon dies from a stupid oversized crossbow.

That is actually a good point and there's some discussions on reddit about how Varys might be playing both sides again.

[Flash Walken]

I feel as though part of the explanation for the lack of military victories for danny since arriving in westeros is that she doesn't have any military advisors next to her, just political ones.

No Jorah, No Ser Barristan, no Dario. She has the weakest allies militarily in westeros advising her on military matters.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Seriously, that closing sequence was just so bad. So bad!

Lannisters siege Riverrun for goodness knows how long yet they storm and take one of the seven great castles of Westeros I in a day? Meanwhile, the Tyrrells are explained to be poor fighters yet they were the decisive factor in the battle of blackwater Bay.

Riverrun is supposed to be one of the most impenetrable keeps in westeros, or so they keep saying in the show. If you played any amount of Civ you would know that having water on 3 sides makes it almost impossible to siege a city effectively.

Also, the battle of blackwater came down to manpower. Stannis almost took King's landing with a depleted force thanks to the wildfire. Without that wildfire advantage, everyone knew that King's Landing was ####ed. It wasn't going to be a long siege of the city, it was going to be a slaughter as Stannis' army would easily penetrate the walls and invade the city/castle. It wasn't that the soldiers from high garden were such badasses, it was that instead of not being involved, they picked a side.

Also, in the preceding episode, Cersei is the one convincing the other lords of the reach to rebel against house Tyrell. WHen you see Jamie riding up with the columns of the army, Randall Tarly is there in the background, indicating that this was not the Reach defending against the Lannisters, it was ONLY house Tyrell resisting the siege. Combined with their lack of military might, that would've been enough to ensure things were swift and brutal for Tyrells.

[Tinordi]

Sure, we can try to reverse-rationalize what happened. But what's the point of having a castle if not to withstand an invading army?

And further, how stupid is lady Olenna for allying herself with Danaerys without getting any muscle or military protection? Highgarden is the closest enemy castle to King's Landing yet she doesn't leverage any hard assets from Dany for her allegiance?

Just sit and think about how stupid this all is. Maybe that's the point, maybe all the brilliant minds have been systematically killed over these years of war. Doesn't make for great TV mind you to watch a bunch of dunderheads run around in ill conceived war.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

And further, how stupid is lady Olenna for allying herself with Danaerys without getting any muscle or military protection? Highgarden is the closest enemy castle to King's Landing yet she doesn't leverage any hard assets from Dany for her allegiance?.

Did you miss the entire last season?

Olenna wasn't allying herself with Daenaerys for muscle protection or to leverage hard assets.

She lost her entire house. She was the last of the Tyrells. She didn't give two ####s about anything but hurting Cersei.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Did you miss the entire last season?

Olenna wasn't allying herself with Daenaerys for muscle protection or to leverage hard assets.

She lost her entire house. She was the last of the Tyrells. She didn't give two ####s about anything but hurting Cersei.

That's a fine way to hurt Cersei, by allowing her to storm your castle and kill you because you're too stupid to prepare for her inevitable march. For a character built up as a wise old lady, she was pretty damn stupid in the end.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Sure, we can try to reverse-rationalize what happened. But what's the point of having a castle if not to withstand an invading army?

And further, how stupid is lady Olenna for allying herself with Danaerys without getting any muscle or military protection? Highgarden is the closest enemy castle to King's Landing yet she doesn't leverage any hard assets from Dany for her allegiance?

Just sit and think about how stupid this all is. Maybe that's the point, maybe all the brilliant minds have been systematically killed over these years of war. Doesn't make for great TV mind you to watch a bunch of dunderheads run around in ill conceived war.

But you can't rail against it for being unrealistic. The maginot line is a real thing, man.

In my opinion your most substantive complaint is about how varys did not know that the lords of the reach were in kings landing talking to the queen in a highly public setting, or that the lannisters had moved 3/4 of their army out of casterly rock.

But then, as someone said, maybe he's playing both sides. Danny's stupid threats about burning him alive and all that.

[Tinordi]

My main critique is that this is all very slapdash and thrown together. I would accept all these rationalizations for how easily Highgarden fell, or for how Euron is everywhere at once, or for why Casterly Rock is a good idea if there was screen time spent fleshing these major plot points out. But there isn't, so we're just sitting around desperately holding on to the idea that the primary storyline isn't degrading into an absolute mess by coming up with our own rationalizations for why everything appears to be so stupid.

That's not good story telling. It's lazy, rushed, and betrays the earlier masterpiece of the show.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Wow, seems the masses have turned. Meanwhile I'm still anxiously glancing at the clock lamenting that only so many minutes of entertainment are left each Sunday night.

I don't think the masses have turned, it's a vocal minority as usual. The first three episodes have all scored >8.3/10 on Tower of the Hand, the premiere episode is currently scored 84% on Plex. There hasn't been a bad episode yet this season.