Russia invades Ukraine

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GGG

What makes you think that China is advocating for a pre-2014 boarder in this statement as opposed the Russian annexation boarders.

Because they legally recognize the Ukrainian borders, and they have not recognized the annexed territories as Russia. Russia absolutely has asked them to do that by now.

Plus they've also already said they think Russia started a bad war. It's not a comment made in a vacuum.

Do they care about the border stuff? No, because in the big picture the final placement of the borders is pretty much the least significant part of the war for everyone outside that general area.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GGG

What makes you think that China is advocating for a pre-2014 boarder in this statement as opposed the Russian annexation boarders.

Additionally:

You can't start negotiations from the position that Russia should just leave Ukraine. That would be Russia 100% capitulating and admitting it was all for nothing. It's also not a reasonable ask from Putin, who would probably be literally killed if he accepted such a peace deal.

Any early end to the war would have to start by Ukraine recognizing at least some of the annexed land as Russia. That's just the situation.

And while you can argue that China selling arms to Russia is going to prolong the war, it's not really as simple as that.

The war continues as long as both sides think they can still gain something on the battlefield. If China starts arming Russia, that might very well put an end to Ukraine/west thinking this is a winnable fight. Simultaneously China gets rich on Russia's expense and gets massive amounts of influence over Russia. That's what the US would do.

China isn't the US though, so I have no idea what they're actually going to do.

Let's also remember that China keeps selling components and small drones by the thousands to the west, so the west saying "you're not neutral because you're dealing with Russia" is somewhat hypocritical. The west is using a definition of "neutral" that basically means "countries that trade with us but not Russia, but aren't directly arming Ukraine".

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Itse

Additionally:

You can't start negotiations from the position that Russia should just leave Ukraine. That would be Russia 100% capitulating and admitting it was all for nothing. It's also not a reasonable ask from Putin, who would probably be literally killed if he accepted such a peace deal.

Any early end to the war would have to start by Ukraine recognizing at least some of the annexed land as Russia. That's just the situation.

And while you can argue that China selling arms to Russia is going to prolong the war, it's not really as simple as that.

The war continues as long as both sides think they can still gain something on the battlefield. If China starts arming Russia, that might very well put an end to Ukraine/west thinking this is a winnable fight. Simultaneously China gets rich on Russia's expense and gets massive amounts of influence over Russia. That's what the US would do.

China isn't the US though, so I have no idea what they're actually going to do.

Let's also remember that China keeps selling components and small drones by the thousands to the west, so the west saying "you're not neutral because you're dealing with Russia" is somewhat hypocritical. The west is using a definition of "neutral" that basically means "countries that trade with us but not Russia, but aren't directly arming Ukraine".

Are these components bombs,ammo and missiles, are the drones military attack drones? if not I fail to see the hypocrisy.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Itse

Because they legally recognize the Ukrainian borders, and they have not recognized the annexed territories as Russia. Russia absolutely has asked them to do that by now.

Plus they've also already said they think Russia started a bad war. It's not a comment made in a vacuum.

Do they care about the border stuff? No, because in the big picture the final placement of the borders is pretty much the least significant part of the war for everyone outside that general area.

So this means they don’t respect the territorial integrity of the Ukraine. They are intentionally not saying anything about boarders. It seems we do agree on that. We also agree that China is acting in self interest as it should.

I don’t see why we need to pretend that China is somehow not supporting Russia here.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

“Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction…”

Point is what? That the US invaded, didn’t find the weapons, and at home has been publicly humiliated by the free press for this blunder?

Or you think China is on par with allowing that level of transparency?

We just came out of a pandemic and lost plenty of lives due to the second time in 20 years China lied and hid the truth. They commit genocide and call it retraining. They imprison their people, on mass for having COVID.

Yet you can get on a plane tomorrow and fly to Dallas or San Francisco or New York and scream and burn their flag. Then go home to Canada and write this nonsense about how their government is basically the same as China.

[jeffman]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Point is what? That the US invaded, didn’t find the weapons, and at home has been publicly humiliated by the free press for this blunder?

Or you think China is on par with allowing that level of transparency?

We just came out of a pandemic and lost plenty of lives due to the second time in 20 years China lied and hid the truth. They commit genocide and call it retraining. They imprison their people, on mass for having COVID.

Yet you can get on a plane tomorrow and fly to Dallas or San Francisco or New York and scream and burn their flag. Then go home to Canada and write this nonsense about how their government is basically the same as China.

Yes getting humiliated by media is enough punishment for the nearly million Iraqi deaths

[Locke]

Were they humiliated though? Really?

Even if they were, a wee 'oopsie, our bad' seems like a disingenuous 'consequence' at best.

Anyways, thats not really the issue here.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by Itse

Additionally:



You can't start negotiations from the position that Russia should just leave Ukraine. That would be Russia 100% capitulating and admitting it was all for nothing. It's also not a reasonable ask from Putin, who would probably be literally killed if he accepted such a peace deal.



Any early end to the war would have to start by Ukraine recognizing at least some of the annexed land as Russia. That's just the situation.



And while you can argue that China selling arms to Russia is going to prolong the war, it's not really as simple as that.



The war continues as long as both sides think they can still gain something on the battlefield. If China starts arming Russia, that might very well put an end to Ukraine/west thinking this is a winnable fight. Simultaneously China gets rich on Russia's expense and gets massive amounts of influence over Russia. That's what the US would do.



China isn't the US though, so I have no idea what they're actually going to do.



Let's also remember that China keeps selling components and small drones by the thousands to the west, so the west saying "you're not neutral because you're dealing with Russia" is somewhat hypocritical. The west is using a definition of "neutral" that basically means "countries that trade with us but not Russia, but aren't directly arming Ukraine".

Ukraine and indeed the rest of the world cannot give Russia any recognition of these new made-up borders, not even an inch.

Security is at stake for all nations moving forward if aggression is rewarded with territorial gains. This aggression will not stand, man.

As for Russia losing this thing and it being perceived at home as an all for nothing catastrophe threatening Putins political position and life, well, this underestimates his greatest strength- his cunning. Before the invasion he paraded his entire cabinet to publicly proclaim their enthusiastic support for the special military operation. He was acting on a mandate he can say. The gay-jew-nazis used their demonic black magic to unfairly curse the Russian army he can say. Wagner attempted a EU-backed coup and caused the front lines to collapse he can say. The Russian propaganda machine is finely tuned domestically and they'll lap it up. He'll spin this loss somehow into a net gain for his offices power. Maybe perpetual martial law.

He also wears high heel shoes.

https://youtu.be/lY6lHjZjYXE

[jeffman]

Originally Posted by Itse

Additionally:

You can't start negotiations from the position that Russia should just leave Ukraine. That would be Russia 100% capitulating and admitting it was all for nothing. It's also not a reasonable ask from Putin, who would probably be literally killed if he accepted such a peace deal.

Any early end to the war would have to start by Ukraine recognizing at least some of the annexed land as Russia. That's just the situation.

And while you can argue that China selling arms to Russia is going to prolong the war, it's not really as simple as that.

The war continues as long as both sides think they can still gain something on the battlefield. If China starts arming Russia, that might very well put an end to Ukraine/west thinking this is a winnable fight. Simultaneously China gets rich on Russia's expense and gets massive amounts of influence over Russia. That's what the US would do.

China isn't the US though, so I have no idea what they're actually going to do.

Let's also remember that China keeps selling components and small drones by the thousands to the west, so the west saying "you're not neutral because you're dealing with Russia" is somewhat hypocritical. The west is using a definition of "neutral" that basically means "countries that trade with us but not Russia, but aren't directly arming Ukraine".

Maybe the Chinese think if the Russians are about to lose crimea by running out of weapons they will resort to nukes. Conventional war is better for the world than nuclear

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by jeffman

Maybe the Chinese think if the Russians are about to lose crimea by running out of weapons they will resort to nukes. Conventional war is better for the world than nuclear

Russia's nuclear threats should be met with Nato's own nuclear threats, cowering to this sawed off little bastard's threats is why he had the nerve to invade in the first place. Conventional war is better for you and I, but ask the people of Ukraine how they like being bombed to death.

This wont be over till Nato either drives him out, someone kills Putin or Russia gets ended!

[jeffman]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Russia's nuclear threats should be met with Nato's own nuclear threats, cowering to this sawed off little bastard's threats is why he had the nerve to invade in the first place. Conventional war is better for you and I, but ask the people of Ukraine how they like being bombed to death.

This wont be over till Nato either drives him out, someone kills Putin or Russia gets ended!

Thousands of dead vs all dead and an irradiated planet

[blender]

Originally Posted by jeffman

Yes getting humiliated by media is enough punishment for the nearly million Iraqi deaths

This.
Just in case anyone is losing sight of the facts.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Russia's nuclear threats should be met with Nato's own nuclear threats, cowering to this sawed off little bastard's threats is why he had the nerve to invade in the first place. Conventional war is better for you and I, but ask the people of Ukraine how they like being bombed to death.

This wont be over till Nato either drives him out, someone kills Putin or Russia gets ended!

It’s terrifying to think a grown adult would suggest this is the best course of action moving forward.

Do you think for a second the issues at hand are not as black and white as it’s being portrayed in the media?

Get this thing negotiated peacefully yesterday and move on.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1629596543178407936

[nik-]

mask off

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by jeffman

Yes getting humiliated by media is enough punishment for the nearly million Iraqi deaths

Originally Posted by blender

This.
Just in case anyone is losing site of the facts.

I have no idea what the actual numbers were but I just did a search and I am seeing between 275k to 306k civilian deaths as a result of US actions in Iraq. Certainly not an insignificant number but a far cry from a million if you are wanting to lean on facts.

[burn_this_city]

Just a reminder

https://twitter.com/user/status/1504767067773415426

[FlamesAddiction]

There is nothing aggressive about NATO expansion. Not a single country ever joined NATO against their will. It's quite the opposite actually. They need to apply and prove they deserve to be in.

Also keep in mind that almost every country that has joined since the fall of the USSR did so because they have experienced Russian aggression in the past and do not want to fact it again.

[blender]

Originally Posted by greyshep

I have no idea what the actual numbers were but I just did a search and I am seeing between 275k to 306k civilian deaths as a result of US actions in Iraq. Certainly not an insignificant number but a far cry from a million if you are wanting to lean on facts.

Sanctions killed a million Iraqis. It's a fact.
Now, we could get into the relativistic debate about how 306,000 dead is only a third as bad as 1,000,000, so it really isn't actually bad at all, but that is a zero sum game, and neither of us believes that, right?

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by jeffman

Thousands of dead vs all dead and an irradiated planet

So you're saying the world should just give in to bully's with nukes and you're willing to sacrifice thousands of Ukrainian lives?

I have news for you, if this is allowed to happen there will be no peace, Russia won't stop, China, NK, Iran and others will take note and the world will be under nuclear threat forever.

Kennedy got it right in 1962, Khrushchev had the dumb impression of Kennedy as a weak leader, after his blockade and speech Khrushchev packed up and went home with his tail between his legs.

Putin would do the same or someone would kill him before he could launch full scale nuclear war, they know Russia would be a 10,000 year wasteland before even one Russian ICBM hit North America.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Yoho

It’s terrifying to think a grown adult would suggest this is the best course of action moving forward.

Do you think for a second the issues at hand are not as black and white as it’s being portrayed in the media?

Get this thing negotiated peacefully yesterday and move on.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1629596543178407936

Vlad is that you?