Sure, I get that. But how much correlation should we draw between players' words and actions in the media and their performance on the ice? Brouwer has to be monumentally embarrassed by his performance last year—unquestionably the worst season of his entire professional hockey career. He didn't respond well publicly. But is this because he actually believes in his own rhetoric, or is his rhetoric a lame attempt to deflect the embarrassment?
It could be anything, and I don't put much stock into whether his statements made in public will affect his play on the ice several months after the fact.
For someone who is supposed to be one of the team's main leaders, not taking responsibility for their terrible play is unacceptable no matter the reason behind it. Not only did he not lead by example on the ice, he refused to take it upon himself to admit that he was bad last year. It's worrying to me that going into a season where he needs to bounce back, he didn't even acknowledge he had a season he needs to bounce back from.
I know a guy like Stajan felt he lost a step at the end of the 2015-16 season and got in the best shape of his life for last season. It was noticeable.
Brouwer needs to do the same.
Agreed. It is interesting that you mention Stajan as a positive example here. On the eve of the 2010–11 season I recall that he was frequently extremely defensive about criticisms of his play through training camp, and also somewhat despondent about where he fit on the Flames roster. No one is perfect, and Stajan's own experience helps to show that a resurgence of Brouwer is not beyond hope.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
For someone who is supposed to be one of the team's main leaders, not taking responsibility for their terrible play is unacceptable no matter the reason behind it. Not only did he not lead by example on the ice, he refused to take it upon himself to admit that he was bad last year. It's worrying to me that going into a season where he needs to bounce back, he didn't even acknowledge he had a season he needs to bounce back from.
I don't mean to excuse him. I agree that this was a terribly disappointing response. I am simply pointing out that it very likely does not really mean much in the light of how he may or may not improve coming into this season.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Yes, if Brouwer cannot elevate himself above the fourth line, I agree, he is done. But as has been pointed out numerous times already on this board both he and Bennett were not half bad through the first two months of the season when they were paired primarily together. Brouwer's game clearly suffered after having returned from injury, and I think it is a reasonable expectation to project that in full health he will again approach his career average. He was on pace to enjoy a +35-point season before breaking his finger on 23 Dec.
Without turning this into a Brouwer thread, here's a quick look at Brouwer pre-Dec23 and post, strictly 5-on-5:
Before Dec 23:
On-Ice
CF/60: 49.13
FF/60: 34.81
SF/60: 24.93
SCF/60: 21.34
HDCF/60: 7.16
SH%: 6.90
GF/60: 1.72
After Dec 23:
On-Ice
CF/60: 47.84
FF/60: 34.72
SF/60: 26.11
SCF/60: 21.87
HDCF/60: 7.69
SH%: 7.11
GF/60: 1.86
Nothing at 5-on-5 changed appreciably other than his big reduction in takeaways. His P60 before Dec 23rd was as bad as Bouma and his P60 after Dec 23rd was marginally worse.
The stark difference in his "production"? Power play points where Monahan was returned to his comfortable and dominant bumper position. You want Brouwer back there, you have to take that away from Monahan or put Brouwer on PP2 and take that away from ~Backlund/Bennett.
That date does seem to show some significance for Bennett though...
Before Dec 23rd
P/60: 1.94
After Dec 23rd
P/60: 0.65
Correllation is not causation though. If I had to speculate a reason Bennett's 5v5 production might have plummetted around that time, I would point to Frolik replacing him on the power play, which would be a frustration device / confidence killer. Continuing to play with Brouwer probably didn't help though, and I highly doubt will help next year. Finally I think between his penalty issues prior to then and his slump during a contract year, things just snowballed for Bennett.
By the way, a sustained P/60 of 1.94 at 5 on 5 would have been equal to NHL stars like Mats Zucarello, Jeff Carter, Mark Stone, Sean Monahan, Jason Spezza, Logan Couture, Tyler Seguin, Blake Wheeler, Jamie Benn, John Tavares.
Yeah, first half Bennett, despite his imperfections, was definitely one of our best players. Despite Brouwer, Not Because. Brouwer was bad at 5 on 5 then too.
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Last edited by GranteedEV; 08-16-2017 at 12:23 PM.
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One week before training camp is my personal cut off before I start worrying. It will officially become a distraction that following week.
Yes, for me, defcon 'Worry' comes after 'troubling' and I think Bingo's on the right timeline for that.
It would be one thing if Bennett had just come off a terrific season with 20+ goals, but what concerns me is that he didn't have a particularly great season especially offensively . Shouldn't be that tough to hammer out a deal. It makes sense why the pastrnak, horvat and and draisaitl deals have taken awhile, those guys were crazy productive last year. Bennett, not so much.
There is really no rush for Bennett's camp to accept a Flames offer.
It is unlikely the Flames will decrease their offer as camp rolls around.
He has so little leverage, that there is no rush for the Flames to increase their offer.
Essentially Bennett's agent is hoping that the uncertainty of not having Bennett signed will force Treliving to move a little. For example an injury to another Center or a trade/signing that Treliving needs to act on but needs clarity on his salary cap before pulling the trigger.
Really the next pressure point to get a deal done is how willing each side is to have Bennett miss part or all of training camp.
Last edited by sureLoss; 08-18-2017 at 01:54 PM.
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There is really no rush for Bennett's camp to accept a Flames offer.
It is unlikely the Flames will decrease their offer as camp rolls around.
He has so little leverage, that there is no rush for the Flames to increase their offer.
Essentially Bennett's agent is hoping that the uncertainty of not having Bennett signed will force Treliving to move a little. For example an injury to another Center or a trade/signing that Treliving needs to act on but needs clarity on his salary cap before pulling the trigger.
Or he's hoping that Treliving gets antsy because he's tired of holding off other business (Jagr if you want a sexy example) while waiting to get Bennett done.
I'm guessing the Flames are trying to wait him out and get three years on a deal so they can keep this 3 year contract window locked down.
1 year and a boost and they have a head ache
2 years and it lines up with Tkachuk's contract
Bennett probably wants 1 year and 1.75 and get on with it.
My only concern with prolonged negotiation is that the player can lose focus on his offseason training but from the Gully Q&A it doesn't sound like that's an issue with Bennett.
I get the feeling that Sam doesn't like seeing a lot of his peers signing big money deals while he's looking a bridge which will make him even hungrier this season. He's scores the game winner in the season opener and does reasonably well in a fight with Nurse.
It's the same thing every year with these second contracts...
The players all wait to see what the other guys get, in hopes that it is higher than what the team has offered them. Once a couple get done, the rest tend to fall like dominoes.
I am not at all concerned.
If it isn't signed when training camp starts - then it's time to be concerned.
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Yes, for me, defcon 'Worry' comes after 'troubling' and I think Bingo's on the right timeline for that.
It would be one thing if Bennett had just come off a terrific season with 20+ goals, but what concerns me is that he didn't have a particularly great season especially offensively . Shouldn't be that tough to hammer out a deal. It makes sense why the pastrnak, horvat and and draisaitl deals have taken awhile, those guys were crazy productive last year. Bennett, not so much.
If anything, this contract is actually more difficult to hammer out precisely because there are so many more unknowns attached to Sam Bennett. He was not great last year, but he realistically could become just as good or even better than every one of the RFAs currently awaiting new deals.
I am still confident it will get done before camp.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
My only concern with prolonged negotiation is that the player can lose focus on his offseason training but from the Gully Q&A it doesn't sound like that's an issue with Bennett.
I get the feeling that Sam doesn't like seeing a lot of his peers signing big money deals while he's looking a bridge which will make him even hungrier this season. He's scores the game winner in the season opener and does reasonably well in a fight with Nurse.
No, just NO!
You want Sam Bennett fighting Darnell Nurse? Bennett is a decent fighter against guys that don't normally fight. He brings passion to the game, and the guys he fights fights to stick up for the team and themselves.
If Bennett fights Nurse he will be on the IR for the season. Hunter Smith gets his clocked cleaned by Nurse, you want Bennett to fight him?
Sam Bennett is fine, a good young player that is developing. We don't need him fighting a guy like Nurse. Him and McDavid? I would love to see that.
You want Sam Bennett fighting Darnell Nurse? Bennett is a decent fighter against guys that don't normally fight. He brings passion to the game, and the guys he fights fights to stick up for the team and themselves.
If Bennett fights Nurse he will be on the IR for the season. Hunter Smith gets his clocked cleaned by Nurse, you want Bennett to fight him?
Sam Bennett is fine, a good young player that is developing. We don't need him fighting a guy like Nurse. Him and McDavid? I would love to see that.
Keep Bennett in his weight class.
Not that I want Bennett fighting Nurse but Bennett can hold his own.
Examples
6'3 202lbs Jacob Trouba
6'3 220lbs Ryan Johansen
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...If Bennett fights Nurse he will be on the IR for the season. Hunter Smith gets his clocked cleaned by Nurse, you want Bennett to fight him?...
Nurse is a chump. The only fights he wins are those in which he either sucker punches or prematurely jumps the other guy. This is reason enough to hope that Bennett avoids him, but let's not perpetuate this dumb notion that Nurse is some sort of über-intimidating NHL player.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
You want Sam Bennett fighting Darnell Nurse? Bennett is a decent fighter against guys that don't normally fight. He brings passion to the game, and the guys he fights fights to stick up for the team and themselves.
If Bennett fights Nurse he will be on the IR for the season. Hunter Smith gets his clocked cleaned by Nurse, you want Bennett to fight him?
Sam Bennett is fine, a good young player that is developing. We don't need him fighting a guy like Nurse. Him and McDavid? I would love to see that.
Keep Bennett in his weight class.
Calm down - it was a tongue in cheek prediction which clearly has little chance of materializing. Point is, I expect a motivated and hungry Bennett and it will culminate in his best performances coming against the Oilers.
You want Sam Bennett fighting Darnell Nurse? Bennett is a decent fighter against guys that don't normally fight. He brings passion to the game, and the guys he fights fights to stick up for the team and themselves.
If Bennett fights Nurse he will be on the IR for the season. Hunter Smith gets his clocked cleaned by Nurse, you want Bennett to fight him?
Sam Bennett is fine, a good young player that is developing. We don't need him fighting a guy like Nurse. Him and McDavid? I would love to see that.
Keep Bennett in his weight class.
I wouldn't want Bennett fighting Nurse either - though I do think you are under estimating Bennett. He is tough as nails. He is obviously in a very different weight class however.
As for Nurse clocking Smith, when was this? Are you talking about this fight where Smith won?
I give that fight to Smith. His face shield was responsible for that cut on his nose. Smith definitely got the better of him.
Smith is tougher than people realize. He stood toe-to-toe with McLaren (a bona fide NHL heavy weight) and it wasn't until near the end that McLaren managed to best Smith. Smith also bested Bisonnette (not that he is that tough, but he is an experienced enforcer). The funny thing is that the Flames didn't draft Smith to be an enforcer - kid does have decent mitts, but is a project. Yep, he has been beat up in the AHL on a number of occasions, but he has also done really well on a number of occasions. Not bad for a physically under-developed guy (tall and skinny) who is filling out, and once again, who is not an enforcer.
Way too much credit to Nurse who is a huge spot picker (though to his credit, he willingly fought Lucic).
Here is Bennett and Laughton in Junior. Laughton is 2 years older than Bennett, and that is a HUGE difference at that age. Bennett is obviously the smaller guy too, and we know he was also a fairly scrawny prospect.
I am sure you have seen him against Trouba, Namestnikov and Johansen, so I won't bother posting them here. He is Iginla-like in the way he plays. Doesn't take any crap from anyone. I say he can hang with practically anyone his size in the NHL, and as we have seen, can beat up bigger guys. Nurse would be too much (Nurse is a very experienced guy himself, and has way too much size and reach on Bennett), but it isn't like Nurse destroys anyone (at least not when they are closer in size AND when they are actually expecting it).
