Ring Road To Nowhere

[Joborule]

Toll road that's leased, and we don't even own the land of the road?

Yep, time to end negotiations with them and go full steam ahead with plan B. Too bad since they would be getting a pretty sweet deal in return along with opportunity to build a great revenue generator with their planned commercial district. Oh well.

Sorry Lakeview residents, we're gonna need some of your houses.

[mykalberta]

I think that is only what one candidate who is running for chief is proposing according to the article the Journal quotes from the Herald. If he wins then its a different story but right now he is just another candidate running against the current chief.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...177/story.html

[getbak]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

I think that is only what one candidate who is running for chief is proposing according to the article the Journal quotes from the Herald. If he wins then its a different story but right now he is just another candidate running against the current chief.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...177/story.html

Yeah, it's pretty clear in that story that Eagletail is the one who was suggesting the toll road, but Whitney won, so it doesn't really matter what Eagletail was suggesting.

[Joborule]

Shows my reading comprehension effort there.

As long as Whitney is not the one thinking the same. He was the former chief, so maybe hopefully he'll be more willing.

[Jimmy Stang]

nm

[getbak]

From what I can find, when Whitney was previously the Chief, there wasn't a lot of movement on getting the project going. Of course, those were the Al Duerr years, when there wasn't a lot of movement on many roadway projects in Calgary.


At the time, Whitney was in favour of a "silent toll" paid by the fed/prov/muni governments based on the volume of traffic over the road: http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/455...u-tina-nation/



Here's a pretty extensive breakdown of the history of the ring road and negotiations: http://calgaryringroad.wordpress.com/timeline/

2000 - The City of Calgary signs a Memorandum of Understanding on the Sarcee Trail extension. This agreement has the City and Province paying to build the road, but the land would still be owned by the Tsuu Tʼina, leased to the City and Province for road use. Chief Roy Whitney states that a toll road is the only acceptable option for this road. The City of Calgaryʼs documents state that the road isnʼt required yet.

Depending on how such a thing was set up, it would probably be a better idea (for both sides) than a one-time lump-sum payment.

[Jimmy Stang]

Interesting. Keep in mind that this was well before the 2009 offer from the Province, which I see as a big step forward towards reaching an agreement. Leadership changes can make a big difference, however, so it will be interesting to see if things continue in the same direction (which has been promising), or if things take a turn.

I'm not sure that the idea of a lease/toll would fly with the province, which I think was their primary motivation for making the big offer in 2009. If you think that the leverage sits with the Tsuu T'ina right now, can you imagine what things will look like when the lease is up for renegotiation, the city is even more populated, the ring road is an essential piece that people have been using for years, and the province has already invested in the infrastructure. Things could get messy really quickly.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Toll road that's leased, and we don't even own the land of the road?

Yep, time to end negotiations with them and go full steam ahead with plan B. Too bad since they would be getting a pretty sweet deal in return along with opportunity to build a great revenue generator with their planned commercial district. Oh well.

Sorry Lakeview residents, we're gonna need some of your houses.

I honestly don't see a plan B for this. Other than a similar option to the 2009 option, the next best option (by far, IMO) is to continue to wait until such time as Plan A can be repackaged and voted on again.

The "toll" paid to the reserve can be the profits made from all of the prime land that thousands of Calgarians would drive through every day. That alone should be enough to support the reserve perpetually.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I honestly don't see a plan B for this. Other than a similar option to the 2009 option, the next best option (by far, IMO) is to continue to wait until such time as Plan A can be repackaged and voted on again.

The "toll" paid to the reserve can be the profits made from all of the prime land that thousands of Calgarians would drive through every day. That alone should be enough to support the reserve perpetually.

This has been a billion years in negotiation. If they're aren't going to agree to a deal now, when are they ever? When the federal and native governments removes/change the reserve system?

[ricosuave]

Originally Posted by getbak

Here's a pretty extensive breakdown of the history of the ring road and negotiations: http://calgaryringroad.wordpress.com/

THAT was really interesting. Thanks for sharing it.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Joborule

This has been a billion years in negotiation. If they're aren't going to agree to a deal now, when are they ever? When the federal and native governments removes/change the reserve system?

At some point, there will be a reserve council that will approve a deal. It's not a great option, but its much better than any of the other route options.

That's how bad any of the other options are.

[1stLand]

Time to build a toll-gate outside main exit of Reserve Land. To use City Streets, all band members must pay a toll.
Or better yet, charge a daily fee for access to the city. Just like Banff National Park

[browna]

Originally Posted by getbak

Here's a pretty extensive breakdown of the history of the ring road and negotiations: http://calgaryringroad.wordpress.com/timeline/

Great read. Lots of great history and talking points for sure.
Some things I got out of it that I didn't know or had heard about that I thought interesting.

a) Sure enough as rumored as of 2 months ago, the Casino is expanding and adding a hotel. All with the one measly access road. The time for the City to step in and do something with that situation, as its completely unacceptable.

b)Historically, the area right across the street from the casino was supposed to be "The Glenmore Inn" along with a beer parlour, strip mall and gas station. Lakeview residents shot that down in the late 60's. Probably a good idea overall, although sometimes that may have been a better alternative then the sketchy, crime ridden scuzzy apartment complexes and area around it, that took its place. Trash.

Make one last bid...the same one that got voted down by a nervous Band who changed their mind the last minute, thinking the white man was giving them the modern day equivalent of diseased blankets; that being land swap promises where the province was giving 5 acres for every 1 they were asking for in addition to over a quarter billion $ in cash. The province didn't have all the deeds for 4800 acres in hand (ridiculous how they could think the province could in advance of such a large land swap), so that got the band nervous and pulled the plug, against the wishes of Big Plume who two days before the vote, endorsed it. The deal even had an out clause if the band didn't get all that land, but it still squashed it.

http://calgaryringroad.wordpress.com...009-agreement/

Give them a chance to reconsider that deal word for word as it was in 2009, then, if rejected, a big middle finger, and start ripping up 37th st the next day...spend about 5 months concentrating on pavement, drainage, signage, road painting, weed control...anything, just at the intersection of Glenmore and 37th, which necessitates the need for that Casino access to be closed. Also, put up permit parking on a 8 block area, so casino and new hotel patrons will have to access via Anderson road and the dirt road that leads in from there.

Moved out of Lakeview in the summer after 7 years there. A great area for residents, and with the parks there, for all Calgarians. A shame that the Tsuu Tina may cause the destruction of that part of the city by being completely unreasonable with whatever demands that they think they're going to get out of the city and province.

[TheGrimm]

If the Tsuu T'ina are so bent on a toll road being the best option, they should put their own money where their collective mouth is and build it themselves. NO issues of who owns the land OR the roads and they can charge whatever they choose, if they get greedy people won't use it.

If the city leases the land and builds the roads, there is no way there should be a toll... Not with the costs they are talking about.

[ken0042]

Depending on how it is done; a toll may not be a bad way to go. Right now we are talking about giving them a whack of cash- and we all know it is human nature that windfalls are often spent on "less than wise" purchases. However a toll ensures there is a continuous revenue stream coming into the reserve.

And for the province it may also work out. Let's say that we are talking about giving them $500M cash right now. If we give them $100M cash instead and adopt a toll of 50¢ per vehicle, based on 100,000 vehicles per day that would be around $18M per year coming in. So it would take over 20 years to make up that other $400M.

It might also allow the province to do what it did in the NE; build a 4 lane roads with room (bridge widths, etc) to expand it to 8 lanes if the need arrises. If we are paying by the vehicle, it is in the Tsuu Tina's interests to allow the road to be widened at that point.

So the province may be able to spread the costs out, and the band leadership will be able to provide a more stable future for it's members. Could be a win-win if done correctly.

[Resolute 14]

And, as Jimmy Stang notes, the moment that lease comes up, the band would do everything in their power to continue screwing the city over, just as they have for decades.

[polak]

Originally Posted by 1stLand

Time to build a toll-gate outside main exit of Reserve Land. To use City Streets, all band members must pay a toll.
Or better yet, charge a daily fee for access to the city. Just like Banff National Park

You put that in green text but if they start tolling us, we should 100% start tolling them.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by browna

A shame that the Tsuu Tina may cause the destruction of that part of the city by being completely unreasonable with whatever demands that they think they're going to get out of the city and province.

I think the real shame is that the City and Province backed themselves into this corner. They put themselves there and will have to be the one to make concessions. The Band neither approved the development of houses on the City lands that could be used for the ring road nor delayed the Provincial funding for the road.

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

If the Tsuu T'ina are so bent on a toll road being the best option, they should put their own money where their collective mouth is and build it themselves. NO issues of who owns the land OR the roads and they can charge whatever they choose, if they get greedy people won't use it.

Maybe a P3 with the Band could be an option.

[Jimmy Stang]

For the toll road idea to work, there would have to be some sort of arrangement where the lease would continue in perpetuity, with the toll amount tied to the rate of inflation, for example. With additional clauses saying that the land can't be reclaimed, the road blockaded, etc. The province saves money in the short term, and the Tsuu T'ina have a revenue source for eternity. Otherwise, the province will have no interest in building this road if there's even the slightest chance that they'll somehow lose access to it at a later date on a whim.

But I still like the idea of buying the land outright. The road is just too important, and the alternatives too costly and impractical to lose it later.

[Beer-gut Murray]

I'm just wondering if anyone has an update on the status of the ring road.

I'm currently in the process of making a long-term work commitment and I'm hoping to have some sort of affirmation that this plan will even go through.