The Athletic: LeBrun: Flames in a tough spot

[Flamenspiel]

^^The family is high maintenance, but that would be the case with his new team as well if he were traded. It has nothing to go with Calgary. Not as high maintenance as Hamilton though, who wanted his brother on the team.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by saXon

I don't believe I've ever seen a franchise cater to a whole family of a player such as his to get him to sign. Have you?

Projecting my projection. Nice.

You mean his mom? He's a mama's boy from the East Coast and still chose to sign a contract with a UFA season in the middle of the Rockies in a different country. If he had one foot out the door he would have stood firm on a five year term like Auston Matthews. Heck it felt as if 8 year deal was on the table during negotiations and the team pinching pennies on AAV was the only reason it was shorter.

Or his brother? Who was with another organization for a handful of years before we did him a solid for four whole minor league games.

Definitely not his dad, who's a coach himself and just a well-respected guy. His dad even publically took the team's side when Hartley suspended him for a hangover, when Johnny was bitter about it.

[sureLoss]

Update related to Simmonds:

Pierre LeBrun @PierreVLeBrun
Hearing the Canucks tried the last few days on Wayne Simmonds in NJ but couldn’t make it work cap-wise, perhaps because Brock Boeser could return before the end of the regular season. So as of now, the Simmonds option not as likely for Van...

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That was more because Sutter thought he was soft. Reinprecht was a main piece in the trade involving Drury to the Avs and after seeing the player for a season couldn't get him out of town fast enough trading him for 3 games of Brian Boucher and 15 games of Mike LeClerc. He didn't have a lot of patience for players that didn't fit his mold of toughness.

I would say Sutter's core weakness was he was somewhat narrow minded - you see it in how he drafted, and the types of players he traded and acquired.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I would say Sutter's core weakness was he was somewhat narrow minded - you see it in how he drafted, and the types of players he traded and acquired.

Yeah, the Lydman and Stralman giveaway in particular GMG - he completely missed the "new" defenseman evolution. And the fact that he didn't draft Jamie Benn. Western, big, center - if there was ever a Sutter player.

[Roof-Daddy]

Since we're comiserating our way down memory lane, I still remember the rumor about how Sutter offered Leopold and Kobasew and a pick IIRC to the Bruins for Jumbo Joe, they wanted Regehr instead of Leopold and Sutter wouldnt do it. Imagine Iggy and Jumbo playing together during their prime years?? We missed out on that because Sutter was in love with a big mean defensive defenseman, if you believe the rumor.

[blender]

If that story about Thornton is true (I don't believe it) then my estimation of Sutter has cratered.

I just don't see how anyone would pass on that opportunity.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Why are we talking a out a GM who hasn't been with the org in a decade instead of the current GM who has been with the organization for 6 years?

Misdirection?

Mighty rich coming from you, as you don't seem to be capable of anything other than bitching about this organization's past failures.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I would say Sutter's core weakness was he was somewhat narrow minded - you see it in how he drafted, and the types of players he traded and acquired.

I also think that has become something that people say without really looking.


What do you mean by how he drafted and the types of players he acquired? By that I am sure you mean drafting Pelech, Nemisz, Chucko? And acquiring players like Simon, Oliwa, McGrattan? Well, true, all of the above is indeed accurate, but he seemed to draft and acquire finesse players as well.


Backlund, Brodie, Boyd, Wahl, Erixon and some others were all known for being 'finesse' players, not big and tough Western Canadian boys.


Cammalleri, Tanguay, Huselius - all great additions and of the soft and skilled variety. Let's not forget that final 2010 team that featured Dawes, Hagman, Stajan (who when he arrived in Calgary had zero grit), Sjostrom, Lundmark and Ian White.


True, he loved his big, tough teams, but he had reason to - he made it to a phantom goal away from winning a cup with a team that physically ran over the opposition. He then went to LA and won with a big, gritty but skilled team as well. He didn't, however, shy away from drafting or acquiring good players who were undersized or even soft - I just think he didn't want an undersized and soft team overall.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I love it when people disagree with me by telling me "I didn't really look".
His high draft picks were rarely skilled based- there is no way someone like Pelech should have been drafted in the 1st. He seemed more willing to draft skilled guys later on - and some of those paid off.
He traded away guys like Lydman and Stralman for nothing.
Yes he acquired some skilled guys, but it seems overall he had a certain type of player he valued and a certain type of player he didn't.
We are more than welcome to agree to disagree, but don't assume I don't know the Sutter era well or that I "didn't look".

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Mighty rich coming from you, as you don't seem to be capable of anything other than bitching about this organization's past failures.

Lol, what?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I would say Sutter's core weakness was he was somewhat narrow minded - you see it in how he drafted, and the types of players he traded and acquired.

I don't think Sutter's drafting can be evaluated holistically.

- when he first became GM, it was a free agency league. drafting skilled players wasn't the norm and even if you did draft a skilled player they were likely to walk elsewhere for better pay in those days
- after the salary gap, all the GMs in the league were still navigating exactly what this meant, and from a drafting perspective he inherited an awful drafting team
- his first few drafts were a disaster, he'd be the first to tell you he didn't know what to seek organizationally. The draft was just viewed as a way to add some bodies to a team hoping to contend. He was wrong on a philosophical level but he owned up to it
- after we lost to the Red Wings in 07 to the skill and talent of the Red Wings (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Holmstrom) he made it an organizational directive to improve drafting and emphasize things like skill and hockey sense rather than grit etc. 2007 was the Backlund draft. 2008 was the Brodie draft. 2010 he brought in Ferland.

Drafting is way better these days, but Sutter took the first step. He had some mistakes but it's not as if he was the same GM in 2005 that he was in 2009 from a drafting perspective.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I love it when people disagree with me by telling me "I didn't really look".
His high draft picks were rarely skilled based- there is no way someone like Pelech should have been drafted in the 1st. He seemed more willing to draft skilled guys later on - and some of those paid off.
He traded away guys like Lydman and Stralman for nothing.
Yes he acquired some skilled guys, but it seems overall he had a certain type of player he valued and a certain type of player he didn't.
We are more than welcome to agree to disagree, but don't assume I don't know the Sutter era well or that I "didn't look".

What I meant by that comment "You didn't look" didn't come out right.


People remember Pelech, Nemisz, Chucko - bigger and less talented players, and they point out that this is how Sutter drafts, preferring the rugged, less skilled players, and it gets passed around quite a lot. Hey, I myself thought this way, and it wasn't until I REALLY went back through his drafts and looked that it wasn't that.


Backlund and Erixon were 1st rounders that were not of the 'big and tough' demeanour. Later in the rounds you certainly see Brodie and other skilled and 'softer' players, but you also see the 'meatheads' so to speak like Watt, Ferland, Arnold...


Like I said, I myself held your viewpoint until I really looked through his drafting, read an interview with Todd Button in the Herald a few years ago, and again went back through is drafting to see if I could spot the difference in philosophy that Button was talking about.


Sure, he let Stralman and Lydman go, but again he brought in Tanguay, Cammalleri, Huselius and Bouwmeester - none of which fought, hit hard or had much in the way of any physicality. Year-to-year you could see the shift in his drafting and trades away from 'toughness' to 'skill'.


I also think the WHL bias was also at least partially a product of guys like Drury not being happy to be in Calgary. I remember him saying that he wants players that want to be in Western Canada in general, and Calgary in particular. That at least partially explains his WHL bias.

[Hackey]

Agreed. Sutter doesnt get enough credit for actually starting the change in drafting philosophy. Button has mentioned it on numerous occasions and you can see the proof in the drafting.