Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Da_Chief]

Is the new arena built yet??

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Locke

The Flames currently pay rent. Guess what it is. I've written it in white at the end of this sentence. $1/Year. Not a typo.

To be fair though, they are mandated to spend money on amateur sports which is distributed by the Saddledome Foundation because of this deal.

They pay $1 rent but have paid over 20 million towards amateur sports since the '94 deal.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Duh. They moved to Nashville.

Except they didn't.

They moved it to Memphis from Houston first.

Duh indeed.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

A couple changes to make it more accurate.

people can CHOOSE to use anything the city builds or not.

If they cannot afford it, then they CHOOSE not to...pretty simple eh?

Like tomorrow...you can go down to the dome and watch all the players for 6 hours worth of practices.

You know what it will cost?

Nothing.

As for your relentless observation about billionaires...yeah no kidding guys that own NHL teams have money. Who else would own them? We get it, you hate capitalism and anyone who has made a lot of money. Move on.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by transplant99

people can CHOOSE to use anything the city builds or not.

If they cannot afford it, then they CHOOSE not to...pretty simple eh?

Like tomorrow...you can go down to the dome and watch all the players for 6 hours worth of practices.

You know what it will cost?

Nothing.

As for your relentless observation about billionaires...yeah no kidding guys that own NHL teams have money. Who else would own them? We get it, you hate capitalism and anyone who has made a lot of money. Move on.

There is a tangible benefit for the community when the public uses things like recreation centres (healthier, lower healthcare costs, more productive, etc.), libraries (more employable, more productive, children not bored and causing trouble), even skate parks (healthier, children not bored and causing trouble.) It seems to me that such benefits are much harder to find in Flames game attendance.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by transplant99

people can CHOOSE to use anything the city builds or not.

If they cannot afford it, then they CHOOSE not to...pretty simple eh?

Like tomorrow...you can go down to the dome and watch all the players for 6 hours worth of practices.

You know what it will cost?

Nothing.

As for your relentless observation about billionaires...yeah no kidding guys that own NHL teams have money. Who else would own them? We get it, you hate capitalism and anyone who has made a lot of money. Move on.

You are a bitter, bitter man. Always ready to name call.

So I hate capitalism and anyone who has made a lot of money?

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I'll go on record with my bottom line.

The City provides the site and upgrades the infrastructure in the area - the same type as proposed in Nenshi's video - at their cost.

The City provides a cash grant of $100 million of the construction costs. I could also live with the City providing more initial funding as long as any contributions >$100 million are returned to the City via a revenue sharing mechanism.

ErikEstrada, transplant, New Era, ManhattanBoy, et al. What's your bottom line?

Are you going to share your bottom line view on what an acceptable deal is?

[Flash Walken]

You're against some forms of socialized subsidy of private industry so you must hate capitalism and other nonsensical fairy tales.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by transplant99

people can CHOOSE to use anything the city builds or not.

If they cannot afford it, then they CHOOSE not to...pretty simple eh?

Poor is a choice?

No bread? Let them eat cake!

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Except they didn't.

They moved it to Memphis from Houston first.

Duh indeed.

Huh, you learn something new every day. In my defense, I was 10 when that move happened. Now I'm curious as to why they moved from Memphis to Nashville. To the Google/Wikipedia machine!

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Barnes

To be fair though, they are mandated to spend money on amateur sports which is distributed by the Saddledome Foundation because of this deal.

They pay $1 rent but have paid over 20 million towards amateur sports since the '94 deal.

Plus, they pay for all maintenance and upgrades to the building. New scoreboard ... new seats ... new dressing room ... new sound system ... etc ... is all paid for by the Flames.


These are things that need to be taken into consideration when evaluating the deal too.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

You are a bitter, bitter man. Always ready to name call.

So I hate capitalism and anyone who has made a lot of money?



Are you going to share your bottom line view on what an acceptable deal is?

What name calling?

And thats rich coming from a guy who used my medical condition against me in a post not more than a month ago. Remember that? You should have been banned for that crap.



As for what i find acceptable I want to see ACTUAL numbers and costs and locations and ancillary benefits for the Flames and the city before deciding.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Huh, you learn something new every day. In my defense, I was 10 when that move happened. Now I'm curious as to why they moved from Memphis to Nashville. To the Google/Wikipedia machine!

Stadium wasnt ready yet IIRC. They played at Vandy for a year or 2 as well.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Poor is a choice?

No bread? Let them eat cake!

Poor is not a choice, no. Who said it was? Choosing where to spend entertainment (or any) dollars is.

Or is it that since many cannot afford something, that something shouldnt be available to those who can afford them?

So the city should not be involved in building anything that requires an admission price?

Like no more swimming pools, cause they cost money to enter. No more rec centers, cause they cost money too.

Or is it only big arenas because they cost more money to enter?

You must be of the position that the city should have ZERO involvement financially with this building then right?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Stadium wasnt ready yet IIRC. They played at Vandy for a year or 2 as well.

Yeah, it's kind of an interesting bit of sports history how that all went down. In the end, the new stadium in Houston ended up being funded 43% by public, 57% by the Texans.

[Flame On]

Its funny where this debate meanders politically. I'm as left as they come but I don't think subsidies should be cherry picked as no one is going to be completely on board for everything. So yeah give money to the arts, and give money to the millionaires, so they can provide something really popular in the city, even if not everyone uses it. Much like rec centres, libraries etc.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by transplant99

What name calling?

And thats rich coming from a guy who used my medical condition against me in a post not more than a month ago. Remember that? You should have been banned for that crap.



As for what i find acceptable I want to see ACTUAL numbers and costs and locations and ancillary benefits for the Flames and the city before deciding.

Not my finest moment and I offered an immediate apology. Have you ever apologized for your abusive tone?

As for the rest of your post. It's just as I thought. You don't want to put a stake in the ground.

You don't want to go on the record.

If you did you couldn't criticize and mock posters you disagree with. It allows you to keep saying Nenshi's the problem, the City needs to do more, give more, but you won't put a limit on that. If you did, you might find common ground with some posters - just as New Era and I did. If people can agree on a principle funding limit then the discussion is only about negotiation tactics.

Do you have a bottom line or would you be fine with the whole project being financed by the City and a ticket tax - no cash contribution from Flames owners?

Or are you just here to mock and belittle?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Or is it that since many cannot afford something, that something shouldnt be available to those who can afford them?

My position is that the city shouldn't be handing out money to for-profit enterprises unless they provide a tangible and necessary benefit that the majority of the public can access if they want to. The difference between the a new arena for the Flames and a rec centre or a swimming pool is that the rec centre provides tangible health benefits, and all money made goes directly into maintaining the rec centre or producing new ones.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by rubecube

My position is that the city shouldn't be handing out money to for-profit enterprises unless they provide a tangible and necessary benefit that the majority of the public can access if they want to. The difference between the a new arena for the Flames and a rec centre or a swimming pool is that the rec centre provides tangible health benefits, and all money made goes directly into maintaining the rec centre or producing new ones.

KK has said that the Owners have never taken dividends or a withdrawal on profits in the entire history of the club. Not that they couldn't, but they haven't. Money is reinvested into the club similar to what you are describing. Certainly the hot dogs and beer are not health benefits though!

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You must be of the position that the city should have ZERO involvement financially with this building then right?

You'd be wrong.

I've posted my bottom line twice.

I'll go on record with my bottom line.

The City provides the site and upgrades the infrastructure in the area - the same type as proposed in Nenshi's video - at their cost.

The City provides a cash grant of $100 million of the construction costs. I could also live with the City providing more initial funding as long as any contributions >$100 million are returned to the City via a revenue sharing mechanism.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by RM14

KK has said that the Owners have never taken dividends or a withdrawal on profits in the entire history of the club. Not that they couldn't, but they haven't.

There's no way in hell you actually believe that's a fair equivalent, do you?