Official WWE/ECW/WCW/TNA talk, or whatever v2

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I know that, but his work on NXT in 2015 and Smackdown in 2016 was pure money. Both those products were on fire, especially Smackdown after the 2016 draft.

Khan should throw buckets of money at him and offer his dad's stake in Everton to get him on board

2016 Smackdown was so, so good. The wrestling and the builds were just money.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Seems like. Its a old WCW trick, every match of importance would either end in a DQ or a brawl.

The problem with WCW was they started doing it during PPVs and the NWO was keeping belts by getting DQ'd and the fans lost interest.

Let's be honest, Attitude-era WWF had a lot of this crap, too. The Rock winning the "I Quit" match at the Royal Rumble because he had a pre-recorded audio of Mankind saying "I quit" was one of the stupidest endings I can remember.

I think one of WCW's biggest problems is that they constantly made their babyfaces look like total dorks/idiots. Outside of DDP, how many of the faces ever really got one over on the NWO?

[Buff]

Stings is back? What?

<runs to watch video>

Cool! Sting! ...actually, meh. He's old. What exactly can he do for AEW?


It took me less than two seconds of seeing Sting on screen to completely change my perception.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Let's be honest, Attitude-era WWF had a lot of this crap, too. The Rock winning the "I Quit" match at the Royal Rumble because he had a pre-recorded audio of Mankind saying "I quit" was one of the stupidest endings I can remember.

I think one of WCW's biggest problems is that they constantly made their babyfaces look like total dorks/idiots. Outside of DDP, how many of the faces ever really got one over on the NWO?

I remember the NWO had the NWO PPV, I think it was Souled Out, At first it was a brilliant concept, promoting it with NWO made ads, at the time it was a must spend $60.00 on. Remember those days?


So I rented it. On one hand it was brilliant, they had a black and white set. They had the WCW non NWO guys in the crowd. The NWO guys got these lavish entrances and the WCW guys didn't and were mocked completely by the announcer.



But the problem was, it was pretty much of a squash of the WCW wrestlers and started the trend of NWO dominance that eventually wore thin.


On top of that the main event between Hogan and the Giant was completely awful and ended in no contest. And even worse they gave the fans payback by having the Steiners beat the Outsiders for the tag champions, only for the decision to be reversed the next night on Nitro and the belts handed back.


The other mistake, and its funny is this. At first they had the NWO just squash everything and it was an amazing piece of booking, but the idea is that you eventually have to have the comeuppance and it really never happened. Even that moment which was sting returning after a year in the rafters to face Hogan was ruined, because they made both Sting and bret Hart look like idiots thanks to Hogan who was really a cancer to that company and wrestling as a whole.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Let's be honest, Attitude-era WWF had a lot of this crap, too. The Rock winning the "I Quit" match at the Royal Rumble because he had a pre-recorded audio of Mankind saying "I quit" was one of the stupidest endings I can remember.

It was supposed to be stupid. It wasn't the end of that amazing fued, it was a way to keep it going without having either of the two guys say it. Didn't we got that fantastic half-time heat segment after that?

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think one of WCW's biggest problems is that they constantly made their babyfaces look like total dorks/idiots. Outside of DDP, how many of the faces ever really got one over on the NWO?

Which goes back to the "workers having the book" thing that I talked about. Faces were just there to help get guys like Hogan, Nash and Hall over. I often wonder where we end up if Sting actually gets the title when he was red hot, or if they don't end Goldberg's streak in a bull#### way. WCW wasn't actually bad at the chase, or the build up. They just didn't know how to finish. WWE's issue is the opposite. They haven't got a clue how to build up anymore, but some how stumble into these amazing finishes.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Which goes back to the "workers having the book" thing that I talked about. Faces were just there to help get guys like Hogan, Nash and Hall over. I often wonder where we end up if Sting actually gets the title when he was red hot, or if they don't end Goldberg's streak in a bull#### way. WCW wasn't actually bad at the chase, or the build up. They just didn't know how to finish. WWE's issue is the opposite. They haven't got a clue how to build up anymore, but some how stumble into these amazing finishes.

The Streak killed Goldberg's credibility to an extent because it was completely random, fans got into it, and were counting house show results and everything. Then the WCW would put out these nonsensical numbers, and Goldberg would actually lose wins, and the fans eventually weren't as engaged.


One of the greatest performers ever for pure unintentional comedy was Sid who claimed that his winning streak broke Goldberg's record as he kept pulling random numbers out of the air every week.


Oh and for those comparisons to the early days of TNA, I give you Cheex


Not pictured here was his manager the Brown Eyed Girl.

[Ozy_Flame]

I just honestly can't get into WWE now. It just so overproduced, it physically hurts my eyes to look at - both the Thunderdome concept and the exaggerated choreography. I haven't watched a WWE product in months.

I know AEW is getting #### on here (and it does have its warts), but at least I can drop into AEW on Wednesday, see a fun match with goofy characters, and drop out. And I can watch a main event that usually delivers for free tv wrestling. No commitment.

[CaptainCrunch]

Like I said before, I love fast forward, because there are too main roster storylines that I like. I think Bliss is freaking knocking it out of the park right now as is Reigns and Jay Oso.


I watch AEW, but I have to say and its a matter of choice, but I like the NXT and NXT UK style of wrestling and show pacing better then AEW right now.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I just honestly can't get into WWE now. It just so overproduced, it physically hurts my eyes to look at - both the Thunderdome concept and the exaggerated choreography. I haven't watched a WWE product in months.

I know AEW is getting #### on here (and it does have its warts), but at least I can drop into AEW on Wednesday, see a fun match with goofy characters, and drop out. And I can watch a main event that usually delivers for free tv wrestling. No commitment.

I agree. I have had a hard time watching WWE, or any wrestling, through COVID, but WWE feels more like a drama about a wrestling show that takes it self too seriously than it does a wrestling show. They've got some bright spots, some stuff I'll probably go back and watch if I get back into it, but for the most part it's been very hard to engage with out the fans proper.

AEW (and NXT, which we haven't really hit on) wants to have an old school wrestling show vibe, which I want to be into. I feel like they dip into the same bag of tricks too often and do some #### that's a bit WWE-esque but they have an idea of what they want the show to be that I appreciate more than a Drama show. Like a weekly boxing card, or MMA fight. Tune in, watch a fight, Maybe catch a pre or post fight interview change the channel.

[SuperMatt18]

I haven’t watched NXT recently but there was probably a 3 year period where that was easily the best wrestling product available IMO.

Coherent storylines, long term booking, and entertaining matches.

And really that’s the playbook, it’s simple but The companies seem to struggle with it (although WWE long term booking has been much better lately). Honestly they just need to simplify the approach and let the talent shine through.

Honestly think that’s what made NXT so successful for a while.

[Blaster86]

Stop. Scripting. Promos.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

They just didn't know how to finish. WWE's issue is the opposite. They haven't got a clue how to build up anymore, but some how stumble into these amazing finishes.

And that's why I'm willing to wait and see how the recent AEW stuff plays out. They've generally been pretty good with their finishes/blow-off matches, even if the storyline to get there has some ridiculous nonsense along the way.

[trackercowe]

There are a few things working right now in WWE. Reigns/USO, Bliss/Fiend, Hurt Business, Drew, AJ Styles. Then you have consummate performers like Bryan, Bayley, Sasha, Riddle, Sheamus, Orton, Owens, Lee, Zayn, Akuska, Rollins, and a few others. There are of course a few things not working as well like Retribution; overall I'd say the product is decent right now. At the very least they have the top two in the WWE as champions right now.

Look at Survivor Series with Drew and Roman squaring off and compare it to the usual overbooked garbage death match Moxley/Omega match on Dynamite. Night and day imo. Elite talent versus two guys who would have trouble making the midcard in the WWE. This is the best AEW has to offer as well...

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Stop. Scripting. Promos.

At least for the guys and girls that have shown they can do it.

Giving Miz and Morrison a scripted promo basically takes away any chance of them getting heat or getting over

Seth comes off horribly in a scripted promo

Assume Romans are being worked on with Heyman and that's the only reason they work

Meanwhile in NXT they have plenty of people who can knock it out of the park, Gargano did match commentary Wednesday and it was great. Pat Mcafee gave an old school unreal promo about UE and it elevated him to a top tier heel there

[CaptainCrunch]

Yeah, I'm thinking Roman's are heavily scripted and kept simple, because frankly Roman isn't good in Promo's and putting him against the Rock would be terrible, remember that Cena made him look pretty bad.


I know that they don't script Wyatt's stuff because nobody thinks like him. I watched the FCW documentary and they showed Wyatt in promo class doing his preacher gimmick and people's jaws were dropping. He's amazingly creative.



Seth really has been stuck on a tangent for a while, but the whole greater good, revolution stuff is something that he's been doing since he started at WWE, he's a bit stale.



I love Morrison and Miz's spontaneous work.


We saw a unscripted moment when Riddle and MVP were going against each other and Riddle got weird in the middle of it and MVP literally broke character for a second with a WTF man look on his face.


I think there are very few really strong promo people anymore that you can just give a mic to and say go. On the female side very few, with Bayley and Bliss probably being the best natural talkers. Banks is fracking atrocious. I rarely buy what she sells.


Wyatt Reigns and Heyman, MVP, right now to me are the elites.

[darockwilder]

FCW documentary? Where did you find that?

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yeah, I'm thinking Roman's are heavily scripted and kept simple, because frankly Roman isn't good in Promo's and putting him against the Rock would be terrible, remember that Cena made him look pretty bad.

I think the opposite has happened. I think they've stopped scripting Roman and this is what we're getting.


The issue with the scripted promos is it puts everyone at the same level. These guys are not actors, not really. So giving them a script makes everything wooden. Some people are better at it. Some people are really good at making other people's words their own. Some aren't. But when you start letting people speak their own words, everything becomes more believable. In this recent Roman run, when I've watched clips and hits on reddit or somewhere else, his mic work is night and day from the "tater tots" bull #### he had leaking out of his mouth a few years ago. In that pre-survivor series contract signing, he did to McIntyre what Cena did to him, and made a good strong opponent look like a fool before they even wrestled.

With all this talk about stars being given more leeway in promos to write their own words, I can't help but think it is more than a coincidence that Roman's ability to talk has improved so much with these rumours.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by darockwilder

FCW documentary? Where did you find that?

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Its on the network, probably on the free portion as most of their old content is there. Its a great documentary.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Look at Survivor Series with Drew and Roman squaring off and compare it to the usual overbooked garbage death match Moxley/Omega match on Dynamite. Night and day imo. Elite talent versus two guys who would have trouble making the midcard in the WWE. This is the best AEW has to offer as well...

Lol, sure. There's a reason why my non-wrestling fan friends will watch AEW or NJPW with me but not WWE. WWE is super bland, slow, repetitive, and looks like it's produced for children. I don't like everything AEW is doing, but at least they're not running out Corbin vs. whoever for the 10th week in a row.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

It was supposed to be stupid. It wasn't the end of that amazing fued, it was a way to keep it going without having either of the two guys say it. Didn't we got that fantastic half-time heat segment after that?

WCW wasn't actually bad at the chase, or the build up. They just didn't know how to finish. WWE's issue is the opposite. They haven't got a clue how to build up anymore, but some how stumble into these amazing finishes.

I meant to respond to this but forgot, but you basically made the point I was trying to make but you did a better job writing it. I don't have an issue with dusty finishes and shenanigans during the weekly shows if it leads to pay off down the line at the big shows. I would say AEW is knocking their "blowoff" matches out of the park for the most part. No one is ever going to bat 1.000, but I've yet to feel let down by an AEW PPV.

All that is to say, they've built up enough good credit with me that I'm willing to see where all of the latest nonsense is going before passing judgement. The reason I'm not willing to extend WWE the same is because they've blown all of that goodwill with their awful booking (e.g. Goldberg going over the fiend, various god-awful PPV finishes, etc.).