Ongoing YYCCC (Chu + Farkas) Transgressions Threat

[Table 5]

That's a very noble thing to strive for, but you better be ready for the standard of living for your kids and grandkids to be considerably lower than what you enjoy today. You seem to imply that with China and India's rise, that they'll just come up to our standards while we keep doing what we're doing. They are rising, we are falling, and we are accelerating the effects. We are a punny country of 40M competing against a region of several Billion.... a region that often does not play by the same rules in regards to safety, human rights, environmental goals, and working standards.

Unlike you, I wasn't lucky enough to be born in Canada. My family risked almost everything to come here, and I know what's it's like to live in a ####hole country. It's why I'm flabbergasted when Canadians are ok with letting what we have erode for someone else's gain. Asia is eating our lunch, and we're just going to be nice Canadians handing everything over to them on a platter.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Table 5

That's a very noble thing to strive for, but you better be ready for the standard of living for your kids and grandkids to be considerably lower than what you enjoy today. You seem to imply that with China and India's rise, that they'll just come up to our standards while we keep doing what we're doing. They are rising, we are falling, and we are accelerating the effects. We are a punny country of 40M competing against a region of several Billion.... a region that often does not play by the same rules in regards to safety, human rights, environmental goals, and working standards.

Unlike you, I wasn't lucky enough to be born in Canada. My family risked almost everything to come here, and I know what's it's like to live in a ####hole country. It's why I'm flabbergasted when Canadians are ok with letting what we have erode for someone else's gain. Asia is eating our lunch, and we're just going to be nice Canadians handing everything over to them on a platter.

Wait, so you know what it's like to live in a ****hole country, had the resources/good luck to be able to get to a country with a better standard of living, and now your stance is that we shouldn't be willing to accept any decline in our own standard of living to help increase it for other counries?

That is the most FYGM response I've ever seen.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Wait, so you know what it's like to live in a ****hole country, had the resources/good luck to be able to get to a country with a better standard of living, and now your stance is that we shouldn't be willing to accept any decline in our own standard of living to help increase it for other counries?

That is the most FYGM response I've ever seen.

China and India does not need piddly Canada's charity to succeed. They are countries full of smart and industrious people, sophisticated industries, and they are already growing at a massive pace (and in many ways have already passed us). Asia is taking over from the West whether we like it or not...we are just becoming a willing speed bump. I'm all for free and fair competition, but do you really think that we are on the same level when it comes to human rights, environmental standards, political freedoms as China?

I think you underestimate the hardship that can come to a places without work. Just travel to any region in America that used to have a manufacturing base, and see what the results can turn into.

But you're damn right. When it comes to priorities, my family, my neighbours, and my fellow citizens will always come first. I bet you that's exactly how the guy in China and India and Russia thinks too.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I'm all for free and fair competition

I don't really get that impression, it seems you're only ok with it if you're protected from the downsides:

Originally Posted by Table 5

That's great for the people of India, but in the meantime the wages and quality-of-life for someone over here is negatively affected.

Originally Posted by Table 5

But you're damn right. When it comes to priorities, my family, my neighbours, and my fellow citizens will always come first.

This makes me uncomfortable. This doesn't seem very different than saying a certain ethnicity or religious group comes first when the chips fall. All human lives are equal, and equal opportunity should be a birth right regardless of nationality, ethnicity, religion or any other arbitrary buckets we can throw people in that they have no control over.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I don't really get that impression, it seems you're only ok with it if you're protected from the downsides.

All I'm saying is there's no free lunch. If you're ok with jobs being outsourced, you should be be prepared to face the consequences. I personally think the standard of living drop can be considerably harder than we think.

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

This makes me uncomfortable. This doesn't seem very different than saying a certain ethnicity or religious group comes first when the chips fall. All human lives are equal, and equal opportunity should be a birth right regardless of nationality, ethnicity, religion or any other arbitrary buckets we can throw people in that they have no control over.

I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but we can all still be humanitarians while acknowledging that we all prioritize our families and the groups we belong to. Do you care just as much about my children as you do yours? If not, does that make you a horrible person? No, it makes you human.

[TorqueDog]

This seems like a really weird conversation to have in the YYCCC transgressions thread.

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

This makes me uncomfortable. This doesn't seem very different than saying a certain ethnicity or religious group comes first when the chips fall. All human lives are equal, and equal opportunity should be a birth right regardless of nationality, ethnicity, religion or any other arbitrary buckets we can throw people in that they have no control over.

Something like 80% of India's politicians are millionaires, and some are into the billions. So in many of these countries where the ruling class live like kings while their citizens have a considerably lower quality of life, it falls to *checks notes* Canada to help fix it? How is Canada going to fix systemic inequality in countries that could take steps to fix it themselves and don't because the people in charge don't want to?

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to help, but it seems odd to suggest that we shouldn't prioritize our own well-being first. Isn't that the point of being a nation, to further our citizens' and country's interests? Why does Canadian public healthcare only apply to Canadians?

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Table 5

All I'm saying is there's no free lunch. If you're ok with jobs being outsourced, you should be be prepared to face the consequences.

I've lost jobs because of outsourcing. Of course it sucks. All I'm saying is I don't begrudge the guy in Costa Rica that was super pumped to get a job that let his family live a little better, lucky for him, unlucky for me that day.

I'm super thankful and content living in a peaceful, safe place where I'm essentially living like a king by the global standard. I just see a global situation of inequality, and know that those have a way of ebbing and flowing. I don't treat my current situation as necessarily permanent, or something I take for granted. Someone else will get their turn eventually at the expense of currently prosperous places to some extent. Empires rise and fall.

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

This seems like a really weird conversation to have in the YYCCC transgressions thread.

Something like 80% of India's politicians are millionaires, and some are into the billions. So in many of these countries where the ruling class live like kings while their citizens have a considerably lower quality of life, it falls to *checks notes* Canada to help fix it? How is Canada going to fix systemic inequality in countries that could take steps to fix it themselves and don't because the people in charge don't want to?

Agreed it's not the right thread for this, so I'll piss off after. I never implied it's Canada's job to fix India. But if some dude in India can do my job better than me, he deserves it. I shouldn't keep it just because I'm "Canadian".

Every time I've been driven in a taxi by a person who used to be a bank executive or an engineer, but they are kept from contributing to society to the best of their ability because we have protectionist labour policies, I get a bit annoyed on their behalf.

[Cappy]

North American standards of living are just not sustainable in the long run - i remember reading it would take something like 8 earths to support everyone if the entire world had NA's standard of living.

We cannot stop countries from raising their standards of living - I mean we can, i suppose, but damn that would be pretty ####ing cruel.

It's inevitable that many developing nations will demand more and more resources, which will increase the prices of said resources to a point where NA will have to lower their standard of living.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Agreed it's not the right thread for this, so I'll piss off after. I never implied it's Canada's job to fix India. But if some dude in India can do my job better than me, he deserves it. I shouldn't keep it just because I'm "Canadian".

Every time I've been driven in a taxi by a person who used to be a bank executive or an engineer, but they are kept from contributing to society to the best of their ability because we have protectionist labour policies, I get a bit annoyed on their behalf.

So long as their standards of practice and education matches what we hold our engineers to in this country, I don't think it needs to be up for debate; that engineer should be allowed to be an engineer here too. Doctors, same thing, as long as there is a way to ensure that their qualifications are on par with what we expect at a minimum here, why shouldn't they be allowed to practice in Canada? And best of all, they'll contribute back into our economy. Win-win.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I've lost jobs because of outsourcing. Of course it sucks. All I'm saying is I don't begrudge the guy in Costa Rica that was super pumped to get a job that let his family live a little better, lucky for him, unlucky for me that day.

We are not in disagreement at all here. I don't ever begrudge any individual for wanting to get ahead, no matter who they are or where they are. I know what's like to have parents working 3 jobs and delivering pizzas at night to get ahead. I admire the hustle. If it means outworking me, for less money, in the same arena, more power to you.

I have two main issues:

1) Individuals hustling is one thing, but on a macro level, we're not always competing under the same rules as many countries when it comes to workers rights, freedoms, safety, and environmental standards. The reason we are more expensive is that we as society have chosen to give these things value...if we want to lower our prices and compete, chances are we will need to lower these standards too. It is one thing to have someone come to Canada and compete freely, compared to competing with those who are working under conditions we would find unacceptable. I have no issues with protecting Canadian workers under those conditions.

2) If we can be compassionate about others, why is it frowned upon to be compassionate about our own? I get weekly calls/emails from India offering to do design/coding work for me that's a fraction of what it costs me now. Should I dump my entire staff and save myself thousands? Or do I look at it in context, and realize that it's important to support the young people around me who are trying to get ahead in life too. My employees are awesome, they work hard, and by having a steady job and safe working conditions, they continue to be positive contributors to our community and society.

Originally Posted by Cappy

North American standards of living are just not sustainable in the long run - i remember reading it would take something like 8 earths to support everyone if the entire world had NA's standard of living.

We cannot stop countries from raising their standards of living - I mean we can, i suppose, but damn that would be pretty ####ing cruel.

It's inevitable that many developing nations will demand more and more resources, which will increase the prices of said resources to a point where NA will have to lower their standard of living.

Yeah, the reality is that the future of human growth is in Asia and Africa, and these regions will eating up a massive amount of energy along the way....and they will not be going from tuk-tuks straight to Teslas. Just look at the amount of coal plants that these regions are building these days. https://endcoal.org/tracker/

The world will definitely be quite different over the next 50 years.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Table 5

1) Individuals hustling is one thing, but on a macro level, we're not always competing under the same rules as many countries when it comes to workers rights, freedoms, safety, and environmental standards. The reason we are more expensive is that we as society have chosen to give these things value...if we want to lower our prices and compete, chances are we will need to lower these standards too. It is one thing to have someone come to Canada and compete freely, compared to competing with those who are working under conditions we would find unacceptable. I have no issues with protecting Canadian workers under those conditions.

I don't disagree at all, and purposely tried to sidestep that part for the original part of the debate, because this complicates things. I think it all fails because everyone wants the cheapest crap possible. For example, if Nike said that they are going to make all their crap in Bangladesh because it's cheaper, but they were going to ensure that a certain minimum working standard was met there, it would actually start to help workers in that area by raising the bar. Competitors may get levered into matching. Except what would actually happen is everyone would start buying Adidas, because cheaper.

I'd like to think I'd drop $60 on a Canadian made snow shovel that paid workers a living wage instead of a $30 made by Uyghur slaves. The fact none of those companies left says either I'm lying to myself, or I'm alone.

The flip side of this coin, is if Canada built out a bigger industrial base that could find consumers for the more expensive products, we could provide more opportunities by growing our own population via immigration.

I'm not sure how the problem is best solved. Probably a little of A, a little of B. The whole world can't migrate to the first world, having a company providing good paying jobs in India needs to be part of the solution.

Originally Posted by Table 5

2) If we can be compassionate about others, why is it frowned upon to be compassionate about our own? I get weekly calls/emails from India offering to do design/coding work for me that's a fraction of what it costs me now. Should I dump my entire staff and save myself thousands? Or do I look at it in context, and realize that it's important to support the young people around me who are trying to get ahead in life too. My employees are awesome, they work hard, and by having a steady job and safe working conditions, they continue to be positive contributors to our community and society.

I'm not condemning anyone for hiring local people. Good on you for providing opportunities to more than just yourself. I do think it's important for us to all realize that the vast majority of the opportunities to be doled out originate in the first world, and extending those in a fashion that helps grow foreign skilled workers can be a good thing.

If I had to TL;DR it, I don't agree with "Outsourcing is bad" without looking at the other side of it, outside of our borders, where there are people who can be very positively impacted by it.

Ok, I'll stop for real this time.

[Table 5]

Ok yeah, I'll stop now too.

Let's all go back to mocking Sean Chu.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Bill/Table,
I actually enjoyed that back and forth, and I feel my "FYGM" post was a little harsh to Table.
Being a little more pithy than usual is a minor port of my covid coping strategy.

So that being said, yeah, let's be pithy about Sean Chu.
That guy is the worst!

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I don't have a problem with people in India getting better work. Just because someone was born within the magic lines of Canada doesn't mean they deserve a livelihood more than someone in India.

As India progresses, wages will climb, and hopefully one day global competition will be more evenly priced as there is opportunity for more people to earn a good wage and live a good life.

It's all good and well for people from India to raise their standard of living, but you're also making an assumption that the money is flowing back down to the worker. This isn't "healthy" kind of competition where these firms are bidding a little lower than the competition (e.g. 10%). Firms like Mphasis are undercutting by a lot - I've seen as much as 50% lower. Instead of a regular $120/hr North American-based Project Manager, they charge $70/hr to the owner company while paying $20 of that to the actual worker back in India. Mphasis isn't raising the standard of living for anyone but their executives...

Also, Table 5 is right on the money about companies like Mphasis always resorting to quantity over quality.

There's minimal benefits to having firms like Mphasis be major players in our tech sector and Calgary shouldn't be parading their presence around like we have a burgeoning industry or anything.

[MoneyGuy]

Is the ward 10 position vacant? If so, why?

[timun]

Ray Jones retired last October; the Ward 10 seat has been vacant since.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Is the ward 10 position vacant? If so, why?

Ray Jones had to retire for health reasons.

[getbak]

If a seat is vacated with more than a year remaining until the next election, a byelection is required, so Jones waited until there were 364 days until the next election before resigning.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by getbak

If a seat is vacated with more than a year remaining until the next election, a byelection is required, so Jones waited until there were 364 days until the next election before resigning.

I believe he went a while without working (with approval of council), before retiring just into the last year.

I believe Chahal and Carra both have some of the ward 10 budget for staff so that they can help manage ward 10 in addition to their own ward.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Every time I've been driven in a taxi by a person who used to be a bank executive or an engineer, but they are kept from contributing to society to the best of their ability because we have protectionist labour policies, I get a bit annoyed on their behalf.

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

So long as their standards of practice and education matches what we hold our engineers to in this country, I don't think it needs to be up for debate; that engineer should be allowed to be an engineer here too. Doctors, same thing, as long as there is a way to ensure that their qualifications are on par with what we expect at a minimum here, why shouldn't they be allowed to practice in Canada? And best of all, they'll contribute back into our economy. Win-win.

I know this is a divergent topic not really appropriate for the "YYCCC" thread, but foreign-trained engineers, doctors, nurses, teachers, etc. have to substantiate their credentials. I have little sympathy for the "taxi driver who used to be a bank executive or an engineer", because by our standards their qualifications aren't up to snuff. It's far too easy in India and China in particular to get a diploma from some degree mill.