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Old 02-24-2021, 11:30 PM   #321
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The game tonight, and last night did not have slow breakouts. They tried to move quickly, and failed.

This roster could dump a and chase just fine if they committed to it. You don’t have to be big or even that fast. You have to not hesitate. Watch Lucic, watch Mangiapane - they successfully dump and chase all the time. Hell, Johnny used to be great at it, so did Tkachuk and Lindholm.
It was a dump and chase (or at the least a puck retrieval in the corner) that led to their goal.
I believe that I've seen them play well enough under this coach to make serious noise, but wow, they clearly are unable to execute well at times.

Also would add that I think that their 4th line is weaker than last season. Would much rather have Reider than Nordstrom, and missing Ryan hurts right now.

Leivo and Simon are disappointments, but either one if them finding previous form would be a huge add right now.

Last edited by blender; 02-24-2021 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 02-24-2021, 11:35 PM   #322
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I have said many very not nice things about players and staff in the Flames organization over the years on this website and others, but I don't believe I've ever said a player doesn't care or lacks commitment. If I did I'm sorry because this stuff is bull ####. That's crossing the line from criticism of players and staff which I think fans have every right to do, to questioning the character of someone you don't know the first thing about besides what you see on the TV. It's garbage and it makes for a toxic fan base.
I never said they don’t care
Commitment and care are different things
Care is easy
Commitment is hard
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Old 02-24-2021, 11:43 PM   #323
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I look at like this. Chance of any team winning the Cup being coached by Ward:0. Will never happen. Chance of the Flames winning a Cup under a top coach: better than zero.

The glaring problem with the coaches this team hires is come playoff time they are horrible. They get their asses handed to them.
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Old 02-24-2021, 11:45 PM   #324
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lost a point, however, 3 our of 4 points from Toronto is as good as one could hope for after that Edmonton game.

That said, they managed to get a point tonight. Keep up that effort versus Ottawa and they should be able to continue on this upward trajectory
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Old 02-24-2021, 11:57 PM   #325
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I’ve watched that last goal about 10 times and I honestly don’t see any Leafs player interfere with Rittich, like, even a little bit. It was a mad scramble but I don’t think there was anything remotely challenge worthy.

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Old 02-25-2021, 12:04 AM   #326
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I’ve watched that last goal about 10 times and I honestly don’t see any Leafs player interfere with Rittich, like, even a little bit. It was a made scramble but I don’t think there was anything remotely challenge worthy.
No kidding...if he did challenge it would be "dumb Ward doesn't know the rules and cost us a point when the Leafs scored on the PP"

On the road in TO and they just scored their first goal in almost two games with the on ice call being a good goal...GL with that one. Maybe back in 99' that is no goal but you are allowed to be in the crease.
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Old 02-25-2021, 12:07 AM   #327
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I’ve watched that last goal about 10 times and I honestly don’t see any Leafs player interfere with Rittich, like, even a little bit. It was a made scramble but I don’t think there was anything remotely challenge worthy.
Given the point in the game, non-challenge is the right call IMO.

Any other point of the game you have to challenge that though. I don't think the point was that anyone necessarily bumped into Rittich, but the fact that the guy was standing 2 feet into the crease not allowing Rittich to get 'set' is the issue.
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Old 02-25-2021, 12:15 AM   #328
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I have said many very not nice things about players and staff in the Flames organization over the years on this website and others, but I don't believe I've ever said a player doesn't care or lacks commitment. If I did I'm sorry because this stuff is bull ####. That's crossing the line from criticism of players and staff which I think fans have every right to do, to questioning the character of someone you don't know the first thing about besides what you see on the TV. It's garbage and it makes for a toxic fan base.
I have no idea how fans measure a players commitment. Is Lindholm committed? Monahan? How can you tell? Valimaki? What about Rittich?

I think some of it is code for Gaudreau doesn’t eat vegetables.
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Old 02-25-2021, 01:01 AM   #329
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Let's be honest. Both positions are valid. The data point can be used to make either argument, just a matter of choosing which one supports one's position.

Argument 1: The failure of this same core under 4 different coaches suggests coaching isn't the problem, the players are
Argument 2: The failure of 4 different coaches with this same roster suggests this team is hiring the wrong type of coach

Same data point. Opposite arguments. Both valid.

What I don't understand is how can be so locked in that you can't see how the information can be rationally used to argue for either position. So instead you default to "must be a defense mechanism".

Again for the record - I don't like the coach or the roster.

So my answer is a bit of a long one, but pretty darn simple. I will use data from the past couple of decades which may help. And this data shows pretty easily that coaches impact player performance

Without even elaborating on the strengths, weaknesses, and the general objectives of each coach, I will lay out the data of Iggy, Kipper, the coach, and whether or not they made the playoffs

Coaches make a big difference between potential and actual achievement, individual and collective. Living in Calgary, we have seen a number of coaches of various styles, with other variables remaining constant

Look at Iginla’s point achievements. He emerged as a force in 2001-02, winning the Art Ross and Rocket Richard. Basically a premiere power forward in the conversation for best player in the game

Subsequently, point totals under various head coaches varied.
Also, let’s add in Kipper’s stats, and group by playoff and non playoff years

Playoff years
2003-04: Iggy: 73 pts, Kipper: 1.70, .933
2005-06: Iggy: 67 pts, Kipper: 2.07, .923
2006-07: Playfair: Iggy: 94 pts, Kipper: 2.46, .917
2007-08: Keenan: Iggy: 98 pts, Kipper: 2.69, .906
2008-09: Keenan: Iggy: 89 pts, Kipper: 2.84, .903

Non playoff years
2009-10: Brent: Iggy: 69 pts, Kipper: 2.31, .920
2010-11: Brent: Iggy: 86 pts, Kipper: 2.63, .906
2011-12: Brent: Iggy: 67 points, Kipper: 2.35, .921

2012-13: Hartley: Iggy: 22 points in 31 games, traded . Kipper: “#### this”


It’s really pretty much crystal clear.

The “it’s the players, not the coach” position you are trying to bring forward with false equivalency loses.
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Old 02-25-2021, 01:14 AM   #330
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missed the game but read all the comments and watched the highlights.

Good team, don't believe in themselves.

That's all you need to know with this core.

When they decide to believe in themselves, these players I think have what's in them to win the Cup. When they don't, last place.

Yes it's that insanely wild a dichotomy. They need to decide if they want to win. Sounds cheesy but is what it is.
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Old 02-25-2021, 01:16 AM   #331
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missed the game but read all the comments and watched the highlights.

Good team, don't believe in themselves.

That's all you need to know with this core.

When they decide to believe in themselves, these players I think have what's in them to win the Cup. When they don't, last place.

Yes it's that insanely wild a dichotomy. They need to decide if they want to win. Sounds cheesy but is what it is.

Umm... Does the coach have anything to do with this?

Maybe hire a hypnotist?
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Old 02-25-2021, 02:13 AM   #332
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I do not believe that coaches have measurable impact at the professional level. I think they are statistical noise.

It's the players, blow it up.
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Old 02-25-2021, 04:55 AM   #333
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check check check check check check dump check check check
There’s no chase in their dump. Wait...that doesn’t sound right.
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Old 02-25-2021, 05:05 AM   #334
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The Ottawa games are a bit of an acid test. Every other team has made hay from them. Calgary has to do the same.
Montreal just bounced their coach for not making hay against the Sens.
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Old 02-25-2021, 06:43 AM   #335
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The 960 guys are just trashing Monahan this morning. Trashing!
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Old 02-25-2021, 06:47 AM   #336
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I’ve watched that last goal about 10 times and I honestly don’t see any Leafs player interfere with Rittich, like, even a little bit. It was a mad scramble but I don’t think there was anything remotely challenge worthy.
Agreed, no chance the Flames would have won that challenge in my opinion
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Old 02-25-2021, 06:59 AM   #337
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I do not believe that coaches have measurable impact at the professional level. I think they are statistical noise.

It's the players, blow it up.

Somebody tell the Panthers. They’re spending a bunch of money for nothing apparently, they’d be in first with any old idiot behind the bench.
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Old 02-25-2021, 07:00 AM   #338
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The 960 guys are just trashing Monahan this morning. Trashing!
Makes sense. The 960 guys are trash so it only seems right.
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Old 02-25-2021, 07:09 AM   #339
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Ugh. Oh, well.
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Old 02-25-2021, 07:11 AM   #340
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I never said they don’t care
Commitment and care are different things
Care is easy
Commitment is hard

Commitment is hard to do but famously easy to evaluate through the television in a few hours a week.
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