Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Relocation is an idle threat.

Right now it is, but it wont be in a year or two without construction under way.

Calgary is a healthier market than a a bunch of others in the US. The Flames are being greedy, plain and simple. Go ahead and try and move, and spend less than you’re spending note on the arena you want.

There are cities offering sweetheart deals RIGHT NOW who have arenas in place.

And no...this market is not "healthier" than other markets investigating adding an NHL team, but keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.

The Flames could relocate right now and ownership would be in a better financial position. Houston and Portland are very much in play as we speak.

Im not advocating for anything here. There are just realities that some seem to want to ignore though.

One of those without any doubt is...IF the team leaves, there will not be one coming back for a long long long time. Some people are OK with that, some are not. Both sides have reasons for their stance.

My personal view comes down to this.

If this city wants to consider itself somewhat modern, a destination for tourism, and among the best in Canada/NA, then it has to have things like modern arenas AND stadiums where large scale events like sports, concerts, and a plethora of other forms of entertainment can occur.

It would be embarrassing as a city to not have these things IMO, but realize others see it differently.

As I said earlier Calgary the last decade or so has become the poster child for "can't do" instead of what it once was and viewed as a city that could do anything. That's the city I remember fondly and grew up in.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

I think people are quick to say Farkas isn’t genuine because he’s a conservative and not a trendy liberal.

Nope. He isn't genuine because his voting history, tweets, and media statements have showed it to be the case.

Want proof I am not simply coming down on a non-liberal conservative? I praised Andre Chabot in another thread on this very forum the other day and belive part of my praise was actually that he is .... genuine.... Unless you of course think that man is a "Trendy liberal"?

Don't simply assume someone thoughts aren't legit because they disagree with a candidate, not everyone demonizes people they disagree with. If you do this, fine, but its not right to throw that mantle on to others.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by transplant99

As I said earlier Calgary the last decade or so has become the poster child for "can't do" instead of what it once was and viewed as a city that could do anything. That's the city I remember fondly and grew up in.

What exactly can't we do here in the last decade?
An arena?

I recall in the last decade a 2013 flood where people were in disbelief we got the stampede up and running.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Right now it is, but it wont be in a year or two without construction under way.



There are cities offering sweetheart deals RIGHT NOW who have arenas in place.

And no...this market is not "healthier" than other markets investigating adding an NHL team, but keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.

The Flames could relocate right now and ownership would be in a better financial position. Houston and Portland are very much in play as we speak.

Im not advocating for anything here. There are just realities that some seem to want to ignore though.

One of those without any doubt is...IF the team leaves, there will not be one coming back for a long long long time. Some people are OK with that, some are not. Both sides have reasons for their stance.

My personal view comes down to this.

If this city wants to consider itself somewhat modern, a destination for tourism, and among the best in Canada/NA, then it has to have things like modern arenas AND stadiums where large scale events like sports, concerts, and a plethora of other forms of entertainment can occur.

It would be embarrassing as a city to not have these things IMO, but realize others see it differently.

As I said earlier Calgary the last decade or so has become the poster child for "can't do" instead of what it once was and viewed as a city that could do anything. That's the city I remember fondly and grew up in.

Not having state of the art taxpayer funded billionaire play things isnt embarrassing. The embarrassing thing is small/medium sized cities and their backwater rube citizens who stake their fragile egos on their local sports team. Edmonton did it with the Oilers, Regina did it with the Roughriders. These cities are constantly dealing with the fact that they offer nothing outside of hockey (not even a top 4 sport anymore) and CFL football (not even a top 4 football league).

Jen Gerson put it best years ago:

"Edmonton is the clear example of this. I mean, clearly, so much of Edmonton's flagging, sad, little ego is tied up in their hockey success that they needed to sign a scam of a deal to give a sweetheart arena over to (Oilers owner) Daryl Katz. And now all of a sudden the expectation is that Calgary is going to fall in line?"

"I'm afraid we're not that pathetic," she said. "We're just not that pathetic, as a city."

Unfortunately, I think time has proven she is wrong. We are just as pathetic.

[Monahammer]

Winnipeg got a f'in team. There is not a single chance in hell that Calgary as a market stays vacant for long. I don't believe at all that the BOG would actually allow a move even. Aren't they negotiating a new Canadian TV rights deal soon?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Right now it is, but it wont be in a year or two without construction under way.



There are cities offering sweetheart deals RIGHT NOW who have arenas in place.

And no...this market is not "healthier" than other markets investigating adding an NHL team, but keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.

The Flames could relocate right now and ownership would be in a better financial position. Houston and Portland are very much in play as we speak.

Im not advocating for anything here. There are just realities that some seem to want to ignore though.

One of those without any doubt is...IF the team leaves, there will not be one coming back for a long long long time. Some people are OK with that, some are not. Both sides have reasons for their stance.

My personal view comes down to this.

If this city wants to consider itself somewhat modern, a destination for tourism, and among the best in Canada/NA, then it has to have things like modern arenas AND stadiums where large scale events like sports, concerts, and a plethora of other forms of entertainment can occur.

It would be embarrassing as a city to not have these things IMO, but realize others see it differently.

As I said earlier Calgary the last decade or so has become the poster child for "can't do" instead of what it once was and viewed as a city that could do anything. That's the city I remember fondly and grew up in.

Fear mongering and Bull####. If you think the city of Calgary hasn't accomplished anything in the last 10 years then you are an ignorant moron who hasn't been paying adequate attention.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Jen Gerson put it best years ago:



Unfortunately, I think time has proven she is wrong. We are just as pathetic.

https://icedistrict.com/explore/about/
Interesting to note as some defended the ice district here just yesterday, but even the official page hasnt updated any photos of the district since 2016... it's an empty concrete pad with unfinished buildings around it and it has been in this state for the last 2 years now. No real end in sight.

It is a scam. Katz (who has since also been accused of being a slimy sexual assaulter: https://variety.com/2017/biz/news/gr...re-1202021527/) is barely in Edmonton anymore, already sold the built buildings, and is sitting on the huge remainder of the land for an indeterminate amount of time. The city has earned virtually none of the originally projected payback in property taxes as of yet.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Mull

What exactly can't we do here in the last decade?
An arena?

I recall in the last decade a 2013 flood where people were in disbelief we got the stampede up and running.

I dont know how old you are but the 70' through the 90's this town stopped at nothing to get things done and have great facilities.

Hell...pulling off the Olympics the way Calgary did, set precedent for all games that followed. No exaggeration.

Yes, not getting a simple arena built when talks started what...7 years ago now, is ridiculous. Sorry, thats something that even small cities are able to resolve.

Calgary had a flood and cleaned it up? This is a claim of greatness? It was wonderful the way volunteers came out and helped neighbors and even perfect strangers, no question. It also occurs every single year in every part of the world. Disasters happen. They get dealt with. This is not some great achievement unseen before.

And I will also point out...to get the Stampede up and running, it was the Stampede board who spent millions of their own dollars to make sure it got done. Not sure what you are suggesting here..

[nik-]

Your emotional appeal has convinced me. We should cave to all of the demands of billionaires to improve the value of their private asset or else we might end up as Mad Max territory.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I dont know how old you are but the 70' through the 90's this town stopped at nothing to get things done and have great facilities.

Hell...pulling off the Olympics the way Calgary did, set precedent for all games that followed. No exaggeration.

Yes, not getting a simple arena built when talks started what...7 years ago now, is ridiculous. Sorry, thats something that even small cities are able to resolve.

Calgary had a flood and cleaned it up? This is a claim of greatness? It was wonderful the way volunteers came out and helped neighbors and even perfect strangers, no question. It also occurs every single year in every part of the world. Disasters happen. They get dealt with. This is not some great achievement unseen before.

And I will also point out...to get the Stampede up and running, it was the Stampede board who spent millions of their own dollars to make sure it got done. Not sure what you are suggesting here..

So you're one example of why Calgary has become a City for not getting things done is because of the arena. that is it correct?

As for the flood, you discounted the idea because other people help each other out, and the Stampede which claims to represent the City, doesn't count as representing the City.

The Stampeded is a Calgary institution. As much as some are embarrassed by that, it represents the City. Its success and failures represent our City.

You are not thinking rationally and its clear.

[Bourque's Twin]

Originally Posted by Mull

Nope. He isn't genuine because his voting history, tweets, and media statements have showed it to be the case.

Want proof I am not simply coming down on a non-liberal conservative? I praised Andre Chabot in another thread on this very forum the other day and belive part of my praise was actually that he is .... genuine.... Unless you of course think that man is a "Trendy liberal"?

Don't simply assume someone thoughts aren't legit because they disagree with a candidate, not everyone demonizes people they disagree with. If you do this, fine, but its not right to throw that mantle on to others.

Not sure what tweets / votes weren't genuine.

Chabot definitely wanted the right things for Calgary, and the reason he didn't gain popularity is because he wasn't a "Trendy Liberal".

Most people demonize politicians they disagree with.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

Not sure what tweets / votes weren't genuine.

Chabot definitely wanted the right things for Calgary, and the reason he didn't gain popularity is because he wasn't a "Trendy Liberal".

Most people demonize politicians they disagree with.

Except... I do not and provided proof and you're discussing my post about my view.

Farkas is not genuine. That is my view and provided proof that I think another local conservative politician is genuine. so you're entire point falls apart.

Examples of Farkas? Go check out a thread dedicated to him on this very forum. You can sort through what is legit and isn't I ain't doing homework for you.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Fear mongering and Bull####. If you think the city of Calgary hasn't accomplished anything in the last 10 years then you are an ignorant moron who hasn't been paying adequate attention.

We can disagree without calling each other "morons" please.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

We can disagree without calling each other "morons" please.

In fairness, he did have a qualifier.

[sfpipes]

Perhaps I've missed something, but has more information come out other than what amounts to a 4 bullet point leak from someone I assume is tied to the city or CMLC? I admit, those points don't look great for the team. However, without context, more info or hearing the Flames side of those points, how are we so confident the team is negotiating in bad faith? I mean other than our own biases of what billionaire owners do in these situations (ie. Katz)? There just seems to be a lot of anger without a whole lot of proper information.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The Flames could relocate right now and ownership would be in a better financial position. Houston and Portland are very much in play as we speak.

Is there something to this? I'm not aware of anything remotely current relative to Houston.

My sense is the owners enjoy owning a pro hockey team and aren't too motivated to sell.

[Flame On]

I think as always, things are not mutually exclusive.
Nenshi (and remember he's one vote on council) has accomplished a great deal in his term, more roads than any administration, National Music Centre, Decidedly Jazz Dance Works building, arts spending (which I work in), ending urban sprawl and having taxpayers on the hook for that sprawl by developers, allowed bike lanes downtown but not where it doesn't make sense like McLeod Trail, New Central Library, cSPACE King Edward, I mean so damn much.
But the same time I would say the stadium issue has been a failure.
Having said that, I do believe the current ownership group are either extra greedy or foolish, I mean who picks now to demand more money, talk about terrible optics when many are suffering.

[La Flames Fan]

I've been all for a new arena, but this is BS by the Flames.

CMLC wants the Rivers District to be a place for all Calgarians, not a "Flames" District. If they're removed and the Flames get their way, I'm out; as a fan and new arena supporter.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Is there something to this? I'm not aware of anything remotely current relative to Houston.

My sense is the owners enjoy owning a pro hockey team and aren't too motivated to sell.

No, it's just the same fear tactic that people revert to when unable to present tangible reasoning.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Flame On

I think as always, things are not mutually exclusive.
Nenshi (and remember he's one vote on council) has accomplished a great deal in his term, more roads than any administration, National Music Centre, Decidedly Jazz Dance Works building, arts spending (which I work in), ending urban sprawl and having taxpayers on the hook for that sprawl by developers, allowed bike lanes downtown but not where it doesn't make sense like McLeod Trail, New Central Library, cSPACE King Edward, I mean so damn much.
But the same time I would say the stadium issue has been a failure.
Having said that, I do believe the current ownership group are either extra greedy or foolish, I mean who picks now to demand more money, talk about terrible optics when many are suffering.

You just provided great evidence that transplant99 point is incorrect, even if it not mutually exclusive.