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Old 07-14-2017, 07:30 AM   #61
Erick Estrada
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I find it funny that there's so much pushback against criticizing Sigalet.

Is a goaltending coach really that different from for example a powerplay coach? Fans judge them all the time based on results, yet I don't see all this "how qualified are you to judge anyway".
A power play coach is actually drawing up the scheme, set-up, etc while a goaltender coach is more advisory looking over tape and suggesting tweaks, helping get them mentally prepared. If the power play stinks for a long duration you can point to the power play coach not making adjustments and having bad schemes but if the goaltending stinks you have to consider the maybe he's just not that good. My issue of course is that almost every goaltender Treliving has brought in has played worse for the Flames than their career norm which points to the issues being deeper than just the goaltenders. It's hard on the outside to find much in the way of positive input he's added to any Flames goaltenders since his arrival seeing they almost all perform worse than their career average for the team. Again he's not THE problem but to me at least he hasn't been part of the solution and IMO that's indisputable as we have seen a lot of goaltenders games improve under the tutelage of goaltending coaches. That's not happening here at all and if he can't assist them to play better I have to question why he still has his job as like everything else in professional sports his job should be results based.

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Old 07-14-2017, 08:14 AM   #62
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A power play coach is actually drawing up the scheme, set-up, etc while a goaltender coach is more advisory looking over tape and suggesting tweaks, helping get them mentally prepared. If the power play stinks for a long duration you can point to the power play coach not making adjustments and having bad schemes but if the goaltending stinks you have to consider the maybe he's just not that good. My issue of course is that almost every goaltender Treliving has brought in has played worse for the Flames than their career norm which points to the issues being deeper than just the goaltenders. It's hard on the outside to find much in the way of positive input he's added to any Flames goaltenders since his arrival seeing they almost all perform worse than their career average for the team. Again he's not THE problem but to me at least he hasn't been part of the solution and IMO that's indisputable as we have seen a lot of goaltenders games improve under the tutelage of goaltending coaches. That's not happening here at all and if he can't assist them to play better I have to question why he still has his job as like everything else in professional sports his job should be results based.
Look at this double standard: when a goalie fails, it's the player. When a power play fails, it's the coach, not the players. What do you expect, the power play coach to crawl inside the minds of 5 players and make them perform?

B..b......But wait, we haven't conducted conclusive experiments to determine if the power play coach is actually doing all those things who say he does and if he hasn't performed as you say he does! Like c'mon people. For all we know Ken King and oownership called all the shots under Daryl Sutter, and we knew absolutely nothing about what Sutter did all day, yet people called for his head.

It's simple, either any one of us can criticize from a far -- and that applies to all franchise personnel -- Or none of us can. This whole "walk 15 miles in another's shoes" is not the job of fans on a message board. Our job is to shake fists at the clouds because ultimately that's all we can do.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:39 AM   #63
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For what it is worth I think the criticism of both the powerplay and goaltending coaches have been unfair.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:54 AM   #64
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For what it is worth I think the criticism of both the powerplay and goaltending coaches have been unfair.
In totally agree. The thing about special teams is that they tend to run hot and cold for every team all season, and then teams will often experience huge swings in their season-by-season ranking every year. I think failures and successes of a team's powerplay are products of randomness to a large degree.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:57 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Wild GM View Post
For what it is worth I think the criticism of both the powerplay and goaltending coaches have been unfair.
It is fair to criticize the power play when it comes to personnel usage.

More Ferly, less Brouwer!
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:28 AM   #66
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For what it is worth I think the criticism of both the powerplay and goaltending coaches have been unfair.
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In totally agree. The thing about special teams is that they tend to run hot and cold for every team all season, and then teams will often experience huge swings in their season-by-season ranking every year. I think failures and successes of a team's powerplay are products of randomness to a large degree.
I don't really disagree, but my point was really that you don't get the same kind of pushback when people criticize other coaches. Some, but not to the same amount and not with the same tone. I don't really see a reason for it. Sigalet is one of the coaches, and as fans we are constantly asking who is doing their job and who is not. Granted we don't usually talk about the goalie coach because his job is less visible, but I don't see how that makes a difference. A coach is a coach.

I think everyone acknowledges that fan criticism is what it is, often poorly informed one way or another. However, it's what fan forums are all about. As fans we like to talk about our teams, even when we might be terribly wrong.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:33 AM   #67
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B..b......But wait, we haven't conducted conclusive experiments
What part of "criticize away, I just find your criticisms uninformed" do you not understand?

You're arguing a straw man in the fullest meaning of the phrase. You don't like the coach, I don't like your argument. We've made our opinions and shared them. Outrage and persecution complex is not required. If you think your opinion is better than a random feeling that he should be held accountable, make a better argument.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:40 AM   #68
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I don't really disagree, but my point was really that you don't get the same kind of pushback when people criticize other coaches.
That's not true.

Here's how you criticize a PP coach: "putting a winger on the point exposes us to SH goals."

Here's how you criticize a goal coach: "playing too deep in the net exposes shorter goalies to high shots".

Please show us your criticism of any coach.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:59 AM   #69
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That's not true.

Here's how you criticize a PP coach: "putting a winger on the point exposes us to SH goals."

Here's how you criticize a goal coach: "playing too deep in the net exposes shorter goalies to high shots".

Please show us your criticism of any coach.
...and there you go enforcing my point because you obviously missed my point.

People don't create these ridiculous and arbitrary standards to measure what is is "acceptable" criticism when it comes to fans talking about other coaches. Yet for some reason with Sigalet there's suddenly a ton of people playing criticism police.

Here's my criticism of Sigalet: there's nothing suggesting he's very good at his job. He's worked with quite a few goalies in the short time he's worked either in the AHL or in the NHL. None have improved, many have lapsed. He might be pretty good, he might be pretty bad, I don't know. But I really can't believe he's too good to replace with the track record that he has. It's not an original opinion, but you asked so there it is.

However, I don't care much. I do however find the discussion weird and unpleasant. Why are so many so aggressive about the perceived lack of quality criticism?

It's a fan forum. Go work for a hockey organization if you want to be surrounded by professional opinions.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:14 AM   #70
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...Here's my criticism of Sigalet: there's nothing suggesting he's very good at his job. He's worked with quite a few goalies in the short time he's worked either in the AHL or in the NHL. None have improved, many have lapsed. He might be pretty good, he might be pretty bad, I don't know. But I really can't believe he's too good to replace with the track record that he has. It's not an original opinion, but you asked so there it is...
I think this is abundantly fair, but I wanted to point out that while Sigalet was in the AHL Joni Ortio actually improved a great deal and at one time looked like he could be a great late-round steal. Again, who can say how much Sigalet had to do with his success and then his failure to make the jump to the NHL, but he does count as at least one goalie who improved a lot under Sigalet's tutelage.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:28 AM   #71
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People don't create these ridiculous and arbitrary standards to measure what is is "acceptable" criticism

It's a fan forum. Go work for a hockey organization if you want to be surrounded by professional opinions.
And I find your absurd persecution complex unpleasant and disturbing. You're pretending my personal opinion represents some sort of enforceable board orthodoxy. They're opinions. We both have them.

This is a fan forum. Go to a support group if you want people to agree with everything you say.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:52 AM   #72
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Lol. Now anytime were arguing against something, we feel persecuted?

I'm pretty sure there's no shortage of people who aren't pleased with Sigalets results. It's not a complex.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:17 PM   #73
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The thought that a goalie coach is some type of miracle worker is pretty funny. Same with a powerplay coach. If the players aren't executing, it's on them. The coach is there to keep them focused, provide strategy, and add a level of attention to detail.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:30 PM   #74
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The thought that a goalie coach is some type of miracle worker is pretty funny. Same with a powerplay coach. If the players aren't executing, it's on them. The coach is there to keep them focused, provide strategy, and add a level of attention to detail.
There's precedent in all leagues as we always hear in football coaches that are QB whisperers where they coach up even mediocre QB's to be competent or better. Francois Allaire at one time was considered one of those guys. Every goaltender Mitch Korn works with seems to blossom as you have Holtby, Grubauer, Rinne, etc. Has there been a goaltender for the Rangers that has been even mediocre singe Benoit Allaire started working for them in 2004? Seems like Rangers backup goaltenders become pretty desired. It does appear that teams that have consistently good goaltending from starters and backups have a common denominator of a really good goaltending coach.

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Old 07-15-2017, 04:11 PM   #75
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Maybe the best goalie coach in my mind is Sean Burke. He's presently a pro scout for Montreal and isn't interested in coaching goalies anymore. One thing is Treliving worked with him in Phoenix, so he should know how a good goalie coach does his job.
Anyways Burke would be my first choice for replacing Sigalet as his results just aren't there.
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Old 07-28-2017, 01:38 PM   #76
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Looks like Mitch Korn is no longer the Caps goalie coach, he's the Director of Goaltending. Interesting move. I wonder if this is something the Flames consider in the future. Sean Burke would be a great fit after his Olympic Gig.

http://www.masslive.com/sports/2017/07/post_610.html

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Now in the employ of the Washington Capitals, Korn has decided it's time to cut back from the day-to-day grind of a hockey season. Instead, he will work in the Washington organization under a new title - director of goaltending.

Scott Murray, promoted from Hershey of the American Hockey League, will become the Caps' goaltending coach. Korn will oversee him, and also will work with coaches and goalies of their Hershey and South Carolina (ECHL) affiliates.
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Old 07-28-2017, 03:13 PM   #77
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Looks like Mitch Korn is no longer the Caps goalie coach, he's the Director of Goaltending. Interesting move. I wonder if this is something the Flames consider in the future. Sean Burke would be a great fit after his Olympic Gig.

http://www.masslive.com/sports/2017/07/post_610.html
It seems that Burke is looking for the management track rather than the coaching track, and is hoping the Olympic gig starts to build his creds in that area.
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