05-21-2020, 08:32 PM
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#441
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Franchise Player
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RIP Hong Kong. Too bad I didn't get a chance to visit while it was still free.
Masterful job by the Communists in finishing off Hong Kong while the world has been focused on Covid.
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05-21-2020, 08:45 PM
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#442
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Calgary
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This was always the CCP's plan, just didn't expect it to happen this soon.
Absolutely ridiculous how they just forcefully evicted the Legco chairman and then used building security to lock out the pro-democratic party's entire membership to get a unanimous vote on paper for these measures for "legitimacy".
I feel sorry for all the people still in Hong Kong who want to and still are speaking out... now they won't get that chance again.
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05-28-2020, 11:34 PM
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#443
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Norm!
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https://globalnews.ca/news/7001208/c...medium=twitter
Well I guess if they wanted to distract the world in terms of Covid and Hong Kong, a good old war would do that in a hurry.
Quote:
China will attack Taiwan if there is no other way of stopping it from becoming independent, one of the country’s most senior generals said on Friday, a rhetorical escalation between China and the democratically ruled island Beijing claims as its own.
Speaking at Beijing’s Great Hall of the People on the 15th anniversary of the Anti-Secession Law, Li Zuocheng, chief of the Joint Staff Department and member of the Central Military Commission, left the door open to using force.
The 2005 law gives the country the legal basis for military action against Taiwan if it secedes or seems about to.
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Well it used to be that China really didn't have the amphibious capability to actually invade Taiwan, they've been building like crazy over the last decade. Building a few dozen large lift capable ships. They've also invested heavily in heavy lift capable aircraft.
So at least the threat is there.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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05-28-2020, 11:57 PM
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#444
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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China and India have been skirmishing again lately as well. It feels like they are ramping up for something.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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05-29-2020, 12:20 AM
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#445
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Norm!
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I still think that China is more interested in the Spratley's then Taiwan, those Islands are just a powder keg waitng to go off.
There have been some big advances in the Chinese Navy over the last 15 years. They have limited power projection with their Type 01 aircraft carrier in operation, the type 02 is in its commissioning trials.
They upgraded their submarine forces with some fairly new SSN's that are rumored to be as quite as a first flight 688 and with advanced French sensors.
They have a ton of destroyers and frigates as well.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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05-29-2020, 08:47 AM
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#446
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Calgary
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I think if Hong Kong has shown anything, it's the CCP is completely unable to manage their own domestic and international relationships without resorting to use of force. Worse yet it's shown the CCP under Xi doesn't care about it's value of its treaties, its word, or the trust it has spent decades building, if it means they will have to lose any face.
Europe and the West need to put up strong consequences for these violations in HK otherwise its not a matter of if the invasion of Taiwan is going to happen but when. The PLA and the CCP are just looking for an excuse to invade at this point and in the current COVID-19 world w/ the Orange in chief allowing the spread in the US Navy (US military politically paralyzed and international relationships with allies at lowest point in past several decades), there is no better time to do it.
Not to take a Russian attitude towards this, but 2020 has been a disaster of a year so far, and it's not even half over yet.
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06-11-2020, 01:31 PM
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#447
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Calgary
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China announces the formation of a secret police unit to enforce the newly imposed national security laws in Hong Kong. There are protesters? What protesters?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-security-laws
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07-02-2020, 10:51 AM
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#448
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Toronto
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A 24-year old allegedly stabbed a police officer while protesting and then tried to flee Hong Kong immediately but was caught just before the plane took off. He purchased the ticket last minute, did not have any checked bags, did not respond to the flight crew paging his name and when found, was not sitting in his assigned seat.
https://www.businessinsider.com/hk-p...ity-law-2020-7
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07-02-2020, 10:53 AM
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#449
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Franchise Player
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It would be nice if Trudeau would follow the lead of the UK and Australia and start fast tracking an emigration path for HK'ers.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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07-02-2020, 11:42 AM
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#450
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik-
It would be nice if Trudeau would follow the lead of the UK and Australia and start fast tracking an emigration path for HK'ers.
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It's already not that hard for Hongkongers to come to Canada. Roughly 10% of Hongkongers either live in Canada or have Canadian citizenship (the largest community outside of Hong Kong, including China). The main reason it slowed down was due to the changes in mortgage rules.
England kind of owes it to them though.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 07-02-2020 at 11:45 AM.
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07-02-2020, 11:46 AM
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#451
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
It's already not that hard for Hong Kongers to come to Canada. Roughly 10% of Hongkongers either live in Canada or have Canadian citizenship (the largest community outside of Hong Kong, including China). The main reason it slowed down was due to the changes in mortgage rules.
England kind of owes it to them though.
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Yes, the UK owes it to them, but we should be making it even easier. It's time for the entire Commonwealth to step up imo. Two other western centric nations have done something, we should too. Offering save haven and a citizenship path is on another level than even "not that hard" immigration.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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Last edited by nik-; 07-02-2020 at 11:49 AM.
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07-02-2020, 04:17 PM
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#452
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wins 10 internets
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: slightly to the left
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Plus aside from the humanitarian issues, Hong Kong residents are exactly the type of immigrants any western country would want. High degree of English proficiency, educated, no major cultural integration issues. It just sucks that this is happening during a global depression where jobs are so scarce
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07-02-2020, 04:37 PM
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#453
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda
Plus aside from the humanitarian issues, Hong Kong residents are exactly the type of immigrants any western country would want. High degree of English proficiency, educated, no major cultural integration issues. It just sucks that this is happening during a global depression where jobs are so scarce
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I agree with that. Hong Kong immigrants to Canada have had a positive effect and more wouldn't be an issue. I just don't think the immigration process has been that difficult to say that Trudeau himself isn't doing enough to facilitate it. I could be missing something though.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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07-02-2020, 10:30 PM
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#454
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Shanghai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameOn
I think if Hong Kong has shown anything, it's the CCP is completely unable to manage their own domestic and international relationships without resorting to use of force. Worse yet it's shown the CCP under Xi doesn't care about it's value of its treaties, its word, or the trust it has spent decades building, if it means they will have to lose any face.
Europe and the West need to put up strong consequences for these violations in HK otherwise its not a matter of if the invasion of Taiwan is going to happen but when. The PLA and the CCP are just looking for an excuse to invade at this point and in the current COVID-19 world w/ the Orange in chief allowing the spread in the US Navy (US military politically paralyzed and international relationships with allies at lowest point in past several decades), there is no better time to do it.
Not to take a Russian attitude towards this, but 2020 has been a disaster of a year so far, and it's not even half over yet.
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I don't really feel this is an entirely fair description. China, so far, does have peaceful relations with most countries that it engages with. Hong Kong and Taiwan are special cases, and I think what has happened with HK is in no small part about sending a message regionally that Western powers are no longer the dominant players in the region. That includes no longer being beholden to deals made when weak and under duress.
It's worth keeping in mind that Hong Kong was ceded to Britain only as a result of Britain forcing them to give it up after years of Britain flooding the country with opium that was destroying lives and society in China, and that Britain used their technological military superiority to forcefully maintain that destructive flow of opium into the country because of the money that was being made from it. China has never considered the treaty that granted HK to Britain to be a fair treaty, and the relationship with Western powers and China made it clear that if you had power, you set whatever terms you want. From a Chinese perspective, taking back HK is the righting of an old wrong and a demonstration, both internally and regionally, that China is strong enough now to assert its rights and Western powers such as the US are longer dominant in the region.
What we're seeing is the rise of a country with a government, and a populace, that places a lot of pride in the country's history as a centre of civilization, culture and power. Xi, I believe, attaches a lot of importance to reclaiming Chinese pride and returning China to the sort of role it historically held in the region and the world. That is his intended legacy.
The table set by the West is one where the rules are made by whoever has power to force their interests upon others, sovereignty be damned. That's also virtually the most fundamental rule throughout history. China, like other countries, has watched the ways in which Britain and other colonial powers behaved, and how the US has continued to behave with countries that don't simply get on board with American hegemony. Unlike other countries, China has developed to a point where it now has confidence to actually stand up to Western powers and assert itself in its region, and just as conservatives in Canada and the US now accuse progressives of virtue signaling while grabbing power, China looks at the West as virtue signaling about human rights while continuing to enjoy the advantages gained through centuries of genocide, slavery, murder and theft.
China is rising as a country with a different world view and the power to now stand up for what it sees as being its interests, but that does not mean China is going to resort to violent force with everyone. Like any major power, China will look to serve it's own interests, but I think China will prefer to do this using economic and political coercion rather than force. I hope so.
On a personal note, I hate the loss of Hong Kong. It's a special place in the world. It's one of the places I consider home and where some of my happiest memories and best friendships of my life were formed. Hearing what's happening to friends still there, their businesses, their work in universities etc is really upsetting to me. I also strongly disagree with what's happening to the Uighurs. It's horrific, and seems to be just as bad or perhaps even worse than the residential school system and eugenics used for cultural genocide in Canada. It needs to be opposed.
At the same time, there is a lot of hyperbole about China in the West now that is shaping a narrative leading almost inevitably towards conflict. Maybe that conflict will be inevitable. Maybe it is right. But, maybe not. We should all be hesitant of narratives that lead that way though, because for the average person globally there is no doubt that conflict between China and the West will be more bad than good.
As heartbroken as I am about HK, and as real as I know the pain is on the part of HKers who want autonomy, I also believe the current rise in international tensions with China is much less about human rights and empathy for the people of HK or the Uighurs and much more about pushing back against a challenge to American global dominance and the dominance of the Western world view. Canada, as a middle power, will get pulled one way and the other. China certainly is moving to be a global competitor for the US and to expand it's own sphere of influence, but that's not necessarily going to be violent, or any more violent than how America operates. For us average people who will be caught in the middle of any conflict, we should be very cautious about narratives that could hurry us along into a situation that will hurt Canadians and other average people for the sake of American hegemony.
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
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07-02-2020, 10:46 PM
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#455
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Toronto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB
I don't really feel this is an entirely fair description. China, so far, does have peaceful relations with most countries that it engages with. Hong Kong and Taiwan are special cases, and I think what has happened with HK is in no small part about sending a message regionally that Western powers are no longer the dominant players in the region. That includes no longer being beholden to deals made when weak and under duress.
It's worth keeping in mind that Hong Kong was ceded to Britain only as a result of Britain forcing them to give it up after years of Britain flooding the country with opium that was destroying lives and society in China, and that Britain used their technological military superiority to forcefully maintain that destructive flow of opium into the country because of the money that was being made from it. China has never considered the treaty that granted HK to Britain to be a fair treaty, and the relationship with Western powers and China made it clear that if you had power, you set whatever terms you want. From a Chinese perspective, taking back HK is the righting of an old wrong and a demonstration, both internally and regionally, that China is strong enough now to assert its rights and Western powers such as the US are longer dominant in the region.
What we're seeing is the rise of a country with a government, and a populace, that places a lot of pride in the country's history as a centre of civilization, culture and power. Xi, I believe, attaches a lot of importance to reclaiming Chinese pride and returning China to the sort of role it historically held in the region and the world. That is his intended legacy.
The table set by the West is one where the rules are made by whoever has power to force their interests upon others, sovereignty be damned. That's also virtually the most fundamental rule throughout history. China, like other countries, has watched the ways in which Britain and other colonial powers behaved, and how the US has continued to behave with countries that don't simply get on board with American hegemony. Unlike other countries, China has developed to a point where it now has confidence to actually stand up to Western powers and assert itself in its region, and just as conservatives in Canada and the US now accuse progressives of virtue signaling while grabbing power, China looks at the West as virtue signaling about human rights while continuing to enjoy the advantages gained through centuries of genocide, slavery, murder and theft.
China is rising as a country with a different world view and the power to now stand up for what it sees as being its interests, but that does not mean China is going to resort to violent force with everyone. Like any major power, China will look to serve it's own interests, but I think China will prefer to do this using economic and political coercion rather than force. I hope so.
On a personal note, I hate the loss of Hong Kong. It's a special place in the world. It's one of the places I consider home and where some of my happiest memories and best friendships of my life were formed. Hearing what's happening to friends still there, their businesses, their work in universities etc is really upsetting to me. I also strongly disagree with what's happening to the Uighurs. It's horrific, and seems to be just as bad or perhaps even worse than the residential school system and eugenics used for cultural genocide in Canada. It needs to be opposed.
At the same time, there is a lot of hyperbole about China in the West now that is shaping a narrative leading almost inevitably towards conflict. Maybe that conflict will be inevitable. Maybe it is right. But, maybe not. We should all be hesitant of narratives that lead that way though, because for the average person globally there is no doubt that conflict between China and the West will be more bad than good.
As heartbroken as I am about HK, and as real as I know the pain is on the part of HKers who want autonomy, I also believe the current rise in international tensions with China is much less about human rights and empathy for the people of HK or the Uighurs and much more about pushing back against a challenge to American global dominance and the dominance of the Western world view. Canada, as a middle power, will get pulled one way and the other. China certainly is moving to be a global competitor for the US and to expand it's own sphere of influence, but that's not necessarily going to be violent, or any more violent than how America operates. For us average people who will be caught in the middle of any conflict, we should be very cautious about narratives that could hurry us along into a situation that will hurt Canadians and other average people for the sake of American hegemony.
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This is an excellent post. You've always been fair and balanced whenever the topic of China comes up, in my opinion.
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07-02-2020, 11:20 PM
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#456
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Franchise Player
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I actually think that's a naive post. We don't have to respect an authoritarian world view just because someone with money holds it. Donald Trump holds an authoritarian world view too and it's also trash. I don't think many people don't grant that China has an incredible history and culture, and if they do, then it's an opinion that doesn't hold a lot of weight. But history doesn't excuse action. Regardless of the circumstances of the possession of HK in the first place, which were at minimum amoral and in reality criminal, the handover had stipulations.
I also think you greatly overvalue how positive the relationships China has with other countries that they're not openly belligerent with. Debt slavery to strip resources isn't positive, it's just economic colonialism.
The rise of another power is inevitable, but we don't have to just accept it when the power suppresses freedoms and free enterprise.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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07-02-2020, 11:35 PM
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#457
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: east van
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik-
It would be nice if Trudeau would follow the lead of the UK and Australia and start fast tracking an emigration path for HK'ers.
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It would be nice for Canada, that's a vast sea of well qualified hard working business people, it might actually ameliorate the worst affects of the downturn
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07-02-2020, 11:41 PM
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#458
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Franchise Player
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They would think our complaints about housing prices were so quaint.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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07-03-2020, 08:11 AM
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#459
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Lifetime Suspension
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Imagine if HK had american gun culture and chinese oppression was met by 500,000 HK'ers with assault rifles.
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07-03-2020, 08:33 AM
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#460
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Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matata
Imagine if HK had american gun culture and chinese oppression was met by 500,000 HK'ers with assault rifles.
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Yeah, imagine. Beijing would respond to the insurrection by sending in the People's Liberation Army equipped with tanks, IFVs, and other heavy weapons to completely crush the civilian resistance in a way that would make the Tienanmen Square massacre pale in comparison. This pro-gun fantasy that unorganized civilian partisans equipped with small arms can somehow defeat the full power of a nation state's military is just that, a fantasy.
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