Ring Road To Nowhere

[Old Yeller]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I don't remember that being cited as the reason they rejected the deal last time...

Officially no, but I believe the last time they rejected the deal someone (maybe Rutherford?) was theorizing that it could be that the people of Tsuu T'ina sending a message to the band leaders in regards to the major trust issues that exist between the two.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Hesla

^ as long as all the cash doesn't go up in a "big plume".

That is the issue there, the people on Tsuu Tina do not trust their council to properly dole out the money.

This is the key. I'm admittedly ignorant to the leadership structure of the Tsuu T'ina - do they hold elections every so often? Is there a way that the people can keep a shorter leash on their leadership through auditing, legal action, etc.?

Obviously this opens a bigger can of worms regarding corruption and mismanagement of the nation's funds, which clouds the waters somewhat. If the people aren't able to trust their leadership, they're not going to accept any offer, even a good one like the last one from the province. I wonder if the leadership have realized this and will somehow build in assurances?

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Old Yeller

So essentially from my point of view this boils down to the fact that the Tsuu T'ina doesn't trust that the province will procure enough land on the other side of the reservation.

So really the only way this deal goes through is if the province basically makes a guarantee on that land and the only way to do that would be to actively go out and buy the land from whoever currently owns it in advance.

Or am I way off base here?

It sounds like (from the article anyway) that most (or all) of the land in question is already owned by the province and is currently leased as grazing land:

Thousands of hectares of prime land leased in part by the Copithorne ranching family -and owned by the province -appear to be the key area of contention in reviving a possible agreement between the provincial government and Tsuu T'ina. The band couldn't understand why the Alberta government, which owns the property, wouldn't guarantee it in a land swap.

It sounds like the land was part of the agreement, but with no real guarantee of when or if it would ever be handed over. If this part can be clarified and guaranteed, this should be a piece of cake, right?

[Old Yeller]

Ok I'm scratching my head then, why didn't the province just guarantee a parcel of land then instead of just saying "yeah there's a possibility of this amount of land over here".

Like I said earlier in this thread, my hover car will make this negotiation redundant when they re-open it again in 2045.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Old Yeller

Ok I'm scratching my head then, why didn't the province just guarantee a parcel of land then instead of just saying "yeah there's a possibility of this amount of land over here".

Like I said earlier in this thread, my hover car will make this negotiation redundant when they re-open it again in 2045.

They couldn't really try to break the current lease until there was a contractual reason to do so. Obviously, it would have taken longer than the deal with to Reserve to process.

If there was a way to guarantee it, it would have happened.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

They couldn't really try to break the current lease until there was a contractual reason to do so. Obviously, it would have taken longer than the deal with to Reserve to process.

If there was a way to guarantee it, it would have happened.

I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like the same family has been leasing the land for ages, and also leases land from the Tsuu T'ina already. I would have thought that all of the parties would have been able to come up with something - the ownership changes hands but the lease continues, or making a legal agreement that the title would change on the land at the end of the lease.

Obviously it is more complicated than that, but there must be some way that all parties could have agreed for a mutually beneficial outcome.

It is probably all moot anyway as the lease ends in November anyway, apparently.

[Rob Brown]

They should just cut off all water/police/ambulance/power/sewage etc. stuff that the city provides them, close the roads that lead to the reserve and let them figure their own crap out... I wish the city had some stones and just said "you wanna play games? We will play games"

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Rob Brown

They should just cut off all water/police/ambulance/power/sewage etc. stuff that the city provides them, close the roads that lead to the reserve and let them figure their own crap out... I wish the city had some stones and just said "you wanna play games? We will play games"

Illegal games. Good move.

[Rob Brown]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Illegal games. Good move.

Why would it be illegal? I am curious more than anything, my ignorance just took over in my other post, just annoys me how the Nation is.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

It sounds like (from the article anyway) that most (or all) of the land in question is already owned by the province and is currently leased as grazing land:

It sounds like the land was part of the agreement, but with no real guarantee of when or if it would ever be handed over. If this part can be clarified and guaranteed, this should be a piece of cake, right?

I think it was a "Don't trust the white man" sense of fear that some in the TTN stirred up last minute...recall the Chief as late as the Friday before the Monday vote endorsed the deal, but then it all went sideways. Because the province didn't have the land titles in hand ready to hand over the next day to the TTN, some obviously took this as another attempt by the white man to screw them over.

Well, land titles aren't scooped up and in place over night, esepcially when leases are involved and deals are made in principal. As the article says, leases end in November, and that was likely the plan if a deal was struck back then...that that particular land would be transferred over when those exprie.

Reading that article, sounds like it will get done. Nenshi basically said the 5 city options are all now pretty much useless, and I think the TTN has realized a couple things....First and foremost, they need more/better public access to that part of the SW in order to have future revenue through expansion (hotel, shopping, etc) near the Casino which wil undoubtely come as soon as possible. No way the city was going to provide any more infrastructure to aid that. Plus, if the city went ahead with a 37st expressway proposal, their only "public" access to the casino (without taking the Tsuu Tina only dirt road from Anderson)would be shut off, intentionally or otherwise during and probably after construction. Also, the small matter of a $275m payday, and receiving 5x the amount on land on the other side of the reserve that they gave up, still hanging out there, has them back.

[V]

Originally Posted by browna

I think it was a "Don't trust the white man" sense of fear that some in the TTN stirred up last minute...recall the Chief as late as the Friday before the Monday vote endorsed the deal, but then it all went sideways. Because the province didn't have the land titles in hand ready to hand over the next day to the TTN, some obviously took this as another attempt by the white man to screw them over.

This was the sense I got, and I was doing a lot of work inside the reserve at the time. There was a strong "don't trust the white man" sentiment with virtually everyone I talked to.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Rob Brown

Why would it be illegal? I am curious more than anything, my ignorance just took over in my other post, just annoys me how the Nation is.

Calgary is required to provide access (and I believe emergency services) to the reserve. I'm not sure if it's under a treaty, or some separate agreement, but unfortunately closing access to the casino is not an option.

Thankfully, neither is refusing to route ambulances there.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Calgary is required to provide access (and I believe emergency services) to the reserve. I'm not sure if it's under a treaty, or some separate agreement, but unfortunately closing access to the casino is not an option.

Thankfully, neither is refusing to route ambulances there.

The city is only required to provide one access (at Anderson Road). However, cutting off other access would pretty much guarantee that they wouldn't try to be good neighbours.

[Hessen]

I believe that under the treaty Calgary has to provide an access road to the reserve. Bronco mentioned it when he ended the talks with them. The original access road is to the South so cutting off access from Glenmore Trail to the Grey Eagle Casino would be lega as it was installed for the Harvey Barracks before the land was given back to the Natives,and would give them something to think about...

[Jimmy Stang]

I think the access off of 37th is a legitimate bargaining chip, and I think that it has been subtly exercised already. It is pretty obvious that if the ring road had to go anywhere but through the reserve, that it wouldn't be feasible (physically and politically) to keep the access open there. Glenmore for sure and quite possibly 37th would become a major freeway, and you can't just throw in a set of lights there. And I'd be surprised if the province or the city would pick up the tab to incorporate access via an interchange. The citizens of Calgary would never let that happen. Even though nobody at the province or city has come out and said "fine then - no more casino roundabout" doesn't mean that it hasn't been considered by the Tsuu T'ina. I'd expect that they'd one day like to develop even more land in the area, so access is very important.

The current/existing offer with a little more clarification and guarantee is a win-win-win. The Tsuu T'ina are compensated generously, the province would own the land, and the design of the roadway would be the most efficient. Even though we are paying the price now for poor planning decades ago, the Tsuu T'ina route really is the best for all parties.

[Resolute 14]

Same thing happened at Sturgeon Lake. The province threatened to build a Highway 43 bypass right around the reserve because of ridiculous demands by the band. As I recall, building an entirely new highway around would have been cheaper than what the demands were to twin 40km of road through Sturgeon Lake. Eventually the band finally came to the table, and that work is finally going forward as we speak.

The Tsuu T'ina should be handled the same. If Big Plume wants another vote on the last offer, great. If he wants more, then shove it. We'll find an alternative, even if it isn't a perfect one.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The Tsuu T'ina should be handled the same. If Big Plume wants another vote on the last offer, great. If he wants more, then shove it. We'll find an alternative, even if it isn't a perfect one.

I think that's kind of what is happening right now. The province left the offer on the table and walked away, followed by a fairly public process of determining alternate routes. Even though I know that this has been going on for years, the most recent offer was very generous, and the province isn't going to keep the door open forever. Nor should they.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I've said it before, if you want to vote on exactly the same deal again, do it. The province shouldn't give you any more.

I still think the province should reduce the $$ by some nominal amount. Start the clock.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by Rob Brown

They should just cut off all water/police/ambulance/power/sewage etc. stuff that the city provides them, close the roads that lead to the reserve and let them figure their own crap out... I wish the city had some stones and just said "you wanna play games? We will play games"

Strong arm tactics won't make for good neighbours in the long term.

Calgary already has enough of a reputation in the Calgary Regional Partnership as having " the World revolves around us" attitude.

It was if Calgary wants to be the western Canadian version of Toronto....

[Jedi Ninja]

Tsuu T'ina vote in favour of new ring road talks with province


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ring-road.html