2024 Toronto Blue Jays Season Thread

[KelVarnsen]

Shatkins in charge of a rebuild is not something I want to see

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

Shatkins in charge of a rebuild is not something I want to see

They did the last one and at the top of it they averaged 90 wins a season for 3 seasons and made the playoffs 3/4 years.

Better than any rebuild we had in TO since the early 90's

But yeah, the drafting and developing situation so far leaves a lot to be desired.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

They did the last one and at the top of it they averaged 90 wins a season for 3 seasons and made the playoffs 3/4 years.

Better than any rebuild we had in TO since the early 90's

But yeah, the drafting and developing situation so far leaves a lot to be desired.

I think it's fair to grade them on a curve given the budget compared to some of those previous builds.

Recent history suggests if you give AA a luxury tax type budget you get a perennial contender and a WS title.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I think it's fair to grade them on a curve given the budget compared to some of those previous builds.

Recent history suggests if you give AA a luxury tax type budget you get a perennial contender and a WS title.

He inherited most of that 2021 core to be honest though and he kind of joined the organization at the right time.

Snitker was already there as manager when AA was brought in.

Albies, Freeman, Riley, Swanson, and Acuna Jr. were all already in the organization.

Fried and Andersson were the anchors of the pitching staff and they were in the organization before AA too.

He brought in some key pieces in Morton, Ozuna, and Darnaud. And made some good deadline moves for a guy like Adam Duvall and Jorge Soler but the core of that team was there before he got there and they had a strong prospect pool that allowed him to acquire other pieces.

Also some luck involved now where a guy like Matt Olson was from Atlanta area and that was the only team he'd re-sign with - so made a trade easier - but also lost Freeman due to tension in negotiations that same offseason and had to spend assets to replace Freeman with Olson.

AA was a good guy to try to take a strong framework and push it over the top, but I'm still not sure he's built anything from the ground up. Even in Toronto some of his moves were good, but other moves like the RA Dickey trade and the trade with the Marlins weren't really that successful.

If anything the Jays should be looking to bring in John Coppolella now that he's been reinstated by MLB...as he probably did more to build that winner in Atlanta than AA did.

https://www.si.com/mlb/braves/news/b...-teams-success

[Jiggy_12]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

They did the last one and at the top of it they averaged 90 wins a season for 3 seasons and made the playoffs 3/4 years.

Better than any rebuild we had in TO since the early 90's

But yeah, the drafting and developing situation so far leaves a lot to be desired.

AA gifted them Vladdy which certainly was a massive assist. They also inherited a team that was basically a canadian cultural phenom at the time so they had a ton of rope and lee-way and patience from the fanbase.

Shatkins made some good FA signings. Gausman, Bassitt, Springer (at the time was one of the top FA), KK, Ryu, Kikuchi and made some decent trades...Berrios comes to mind.

Made some bad trades too. Teo for Swanson, Moreno & Gurriel for Varsho (and I do like Varsho, but still a bad trade).

But their drafting has been pretty miserable and they have been unable to adequately address obvious weaknesses year after year.

Overall I'd give them a C. Really didnt get this team to its potential despite no lack of trying. They made serious pitches for Ohtani, Soto & Burnes but their other deficiences in the end cost them the big names. Had they had a healthier base underneath them, I think at least 1 of those guys probably signs.

Its going to be a very long way to dig out from this. This is so similar to where the Flames were at with MT and JG heading in to their free agency year. No prospect depth, no big league depth, holes everywhere, and 2 huge names that arent coming back.

[Inferno]

Seattle claims Hagen Danner.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

AA gifted them Vladdy which certainly was a massive assist. They also inherited a team that was basically a canadian cultural phenom at the time so they had a ton of rope and lee-way and patience from the fanbase.

Shatkins made some good FA signings. Gausman, Bassitt, Springer (at the time was one of the top FA), KK, Ryu, Kikuchi and made some decent trades...Berrios comes to mind.

Made some bad trades too. Teo for Swanson, Moreno & Gurriel for Varsho (and I do like Varsho, but still a bad trade).

But their drafting has been pretty miserable and they have been unable to adequately address obvious weaknesses year after year.

Overall I'd give them a C. Really didnt get this team to its potential despite no lack of trying. They made serious pitches for Ohtani, Soto & Burnes but their other deficiences in the end cost them the big names. Had they had a healthier base underneath them, I think at least 1 of those guys probably signs.

Its going to be a very long way to dig out from this. This is so similar to where the Flames were at with MT and JG heading in to their free agency year. No prospect depth, no big league depth, holes everywhere, and 2 huge names that arent coming back.

Vladdy hasn't always been a gift, although I concede that he's massive.

[KelVarnsen]

We really need to stop commenting on Vladdy's weight. It's basically fat shaming.

And he's worked hard to be in better shape.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

We really need to stop commenting on Vladdy's weight. It's basically fat shaming.

And he's worked hard to be in better shape.

lol I'll comment on whatever I want.

There is one person on this planet responsible for whatever his weight is and that's him. And when you're a professional athlete reportedly looking for a $500 million dollar deal that takes you into your late 30's, you have opened yourself to that kind of scrutiny. Being overweight is a huge problem for somebody in that position.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Vladdy hasn't always been a gift

No, not always. But a career 21 WAR player at only 25 years old is pretty rare and special.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

No, not always. But a career 21 WAR player at only 25 years old is pretty rare and special.

It's also rare and special to get picked off of second base as the trail runner to end your teams season. Not the good kind of special though.

[SuperMatt18]

Think that gets overlooked too much with Vladdy...he's only 25 and some scrutiny was unfair because he was just a young guy put in a position that most guys his age weren't.

20: 2.1 WAR
21: 0.6 WAR
22: 6.7 WAR
23: 4.0 WAR
24: 2.0 WAR
25: 6.2 WAR

Total: 21.6 WAR

That inconsistency isn't uncommon for a player in their early 20s:

Acuna Jr:
20: 3.9 WAR
21: 5.1 WAR
22: 2.3 WAR
23: 3.7 WAR
24: 2.6 WAR
25: 8.2 WAR

Total: 25.8 WAR

Harper:

19: 5.2 WAR
20: 3.7 WAR
21: 1.0 WAR
22: 9.7 WAR
23: 1.5 WAR
24: 4.8 WAR
25: 1.8 WAR

Total: 27.7 WAR

[Jiggy_12]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It's also rare and special to get picked off of second base as the trail runner to end your teams season. Not the good kind of special though.

Vladdy has his faults - and baserunning/awareness seems to be fault numero uno. But there is no debate about his offensive ability. His value around the league will be evident if/when we trade him.

My original point was Shatkins did a mediocre job while inheriting a pretty good situation overall - including an up and coming superstar who AA did all the work in acquiring.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

Vladdy has his faults - and baserunning/awareness seems to be fault numero uno. But there is no debate about his offensive ability. His value around the league will be evident if/when we trade him.

My original point was Shatkins did a mediocre job while inheriting a pretty good situation overall - including an up and coming superstar who AA did all the work in acquiring.

Yes, but my point is that building a team around that up and coming "superstar" wasn't all it's cracked up to be. Bo too for that matter.

Those two were both inherited and were supposed to be the core of the Jays for a long time. Neither one of them panned out to be the type of core pieces you want to build around, but it was at least palatable while they were still making somewhat lesser money.

Now that they are on the verge of free agency it's probably best to just start over, rather than give them mega deals and try to build around them as they get older and are being aid way more than they are worth.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yes, but my point is that building a team around that up and coming "superstar" wasn't all it's cracked up to be. Bo too for that matter.

Those two were both inherited and were supposed to be the core of the Jays for a long time. Neither one of them panned out to be the type of core pieces you want to build around, but it was at least palatable while they were still making somewhat lesser money.

Now that they are on the verge of free agency it's probably best to just start over, rather than give them mega deals and try to build around them as they get older and are being aid way more than they are worth.

No debate there. I think Shatkins did an OK job overall. Not great, not terrible.

It's a shame that we wasted a window of opportunity with 3 meager playoff appearances and not a single win. It could have been better, but it wasn't.

I just think its time to turn the page. Fire Shatkins, then have the new GM trade Vladdy and Bo and start over.

[bluejays]

The challenge is that a new GM, unless someone highly respected and a reputable name, will not want to come in and trade the two franchise darlings as their first order of business. It’s a tough sell to the fanbase. Which is why the dumping deed of Atkins should have been done a long time ago. It’s simply poor decision after poor decision to keep the guy and now the saving grace is he has to clean his own mess up. But they didn’t keep him for the right reasons. The positive is that they haven’t completely been selfish by pigeonholing themselves to bad contracts. They could’ve easily overpaid and brought guys in who would’ve been someone else’s problem but they’ve been in check to not do that. It’s a positive moving forward. But they need to nail a Bo and potentially, a Vlad deal.

[Roof-Daddy]

The new GM won't have to come in and trade Vlad/Bo because Atkins isn't getting fired in time for that. It'll already be dealt with one way or another by the time Atkins is gone.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The new GM won't have to come in and trade Vlad/Bo because Atkins isn't getting fired in time for that. It'll already be dealt with one way or another by the time Atkins is gone.

Yeah. I think that’s what will happen as well. Really stinks for them to start their tenure with the hope that the previous GMs trade prospects will pan out.

[browna]

3 years of major ball park renos to pay for, Loonie Dog nights only go so far in the overall revenue stream, so no way they are in full tear down mode.

Did not address the debacle of the last half of the 2023 season and playoffs in the offseason of 2024. Could've locked up one or both guys, and be dealing from a position of strength instead of behind. Vladdy getting more than Judge doesn't make sense but thats how quickly the market moves and Jays management left holding the bag and will have to pay a couple hundred million $ more to keep the same players they could've head 24 months ago.

Again, and relating back to AA. He got things done, for better or for worse, and had some passion behind his moves. You don't get the sense that Atkins or Shapiro really care to sell their vision to players or fans with any great GAS level; when they leave they'll end up just fine at some point with some mid market team Tampa or the Angels or Royals and live comfortably a little further back in the shadows compared to the spotlight on them now.

[SuperMatt18]

I don't see Shapiro getting fired.

The improved facilities in Dunedin and the renovations and facility improvements have been lauded as a huge success and his guidance and overseeing that probably keeps him around with the Rogers brass.

In terms of Atkins I think he's been kept around to be the scapegoat if things don't go well with Bo and Vladdy. If they end up trading those guys then he can make the moves with the close guidance of Shapiro, they will fire him as the scapegoat, and then bring in a new GM to lead the retool