2024 Toronto Blue Jays Season Thread

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I know a lot of people here didn't like AA for a variety of reasons, but I always did, and would much prefer him to this clown duo. At least with AA what you got was some balls to either be in or out depending on the fortunes of the team and players.

When he saw an opportunity to put the team over the top, he friggin went for it. Love that attitude in a GM.

Yeah. It's really too bad they couldn't just let him run stuff - he was great here and has made a lot of good moves/won the WS in Atlanta.

I think it's very unlikely we'd be in this mess with Bo/Vladdy under him.

[bluejays]

I understand the AA love, because I did as well. But it was a good combination of Beaston and him in that final year where they knew they were likely at their end of life on the team and just went all in. It was a good storm they brewed up to make it happen. Again I give Shapiro a bit of an excuse because he was brought in to modernize the Rogers Centre or replace it and he erroneously and irresponsibly stepped away and gave full reins to Atkins. He deserves heavy responsibility for that but is well respected. To me this has always been on Atkins. They didn’t draft well and only slightly won on trades for bottom rung players. AA had a strategy. These guys are clowns.

A new guy won’t want to come in and deal the teams stars. So I think it’s conceivable that these two will be in charge to do it this year. I don’t have trust they’ll get appropriate value.

As for Vlad’s value vs. Judge, the market has shifted, and I think dramatically. I don’t think it’s wise to give that contract at all, but there are some teams that will look at the $700+ paid for Ohtani and Soto and will gladly pay $500 for Vlad. Just a guess thought but it seems Judge undersold himself in comparison.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by bluejays

As for Vlad’s value vs. Judge, the market has shifted, and I think dramatically. I don’t think it’s wise to give that contract at all, but there are some teams that will look at the $700+ paid for Ohtani and Soto and will gladly pay $500 for Vlad. Just a guess thought but it seems Judge undersold himself in comparison.

I'm very interested in this. Judge got $360MM. I don't think it's debatable that he's better than Vladdy. He hits better and plays a way more important position defensively. I also don't think the market has actually changed that much. Some teams have way less revenue because of TV deal issues (eg Padres) that will hurt their ability to bid.

I think Ohtani was a one-off because he's two-way and a generational superstar. Then Cohen was pissed at missing out last year so decided to get the #1 guy this year no matter what. I don't think those factors will be in play next year quite as much.

The one thing Vladdy does have in his favour is he's younger than Judge was. He'll be 27 when his FA contract starts vs Judge at nearly 31. I think if he goes anywhere other than the Mets it's like 12 years/$450MM max.

[browna]

I think with AA, rightly or wrongly, he was always strong in his convictions and wasnt afraid to speak his mind.
In negotiations that passion comes through.

The compete opposite of Atkins.

So even if Atkins has a plan (am sure he does), if he can't deliver it to internal and external parties/players/agents, with some conviction of believability, it's not going to go anywhere.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I'm very interested in this. Judge got $360MM. I don't think it's debatable that he's better than Vladdy. He hits better and plays a way more important position defensively. I also don't think the market has actually changed that much. Some teams have way less revenue because of TV deal issues (eg Padres) that will hurt their ability to bid.

I think Ohtani was a one-off because he's two-way and a generational superstar. Then Cohen was pissed at missing out last year so decided to get the #1 guy this year no matter what. I don't think those factors will be in play next year quite as much.

The one thing Vladdy does have in his favour is he's younger than Judge was. He'll be 27 when his FA contract starts vs Judge at nearly 31. I think if he goes anywhere other than the Mets it's like 12 years/$450MM max.

Just my thought. Nobody thought Soto was getting more than Ohtani a few months ago. The Mets were intent on getting him, like you said, but there were others who bid close to that price to get it that high. Vlad may not be as good but he’s not half the player those guys are. He’s IMO, 85% if anything, and maybe more. It’s completely debatable but he’s young and has shown what he can do. To me there’s a 90% chance he goes for more than $500 if he hits the market. There are a lot of teams who would be in the mix at that range, where only a few could get to $700 for the other two.

[JTech780]

Apparently the Jays offer to Santander is 4 years $82m. Thats a deal I can live with. Sure it’s a year too long and couple million too much, but that’s the nature of free agency especially for the Blue Jays.

[zukes]

Originally Posted by JTech780

Apparently the Jays offer to Santander is 4 years $82m. Thats a deal I can live with. Sure it’s a year too long and couple million too much, but that’s the nature of free agency especially for the Blue Jays.

Not a good sign that this has been leaked. Seems like someone is shopping the Jays offer around. I certainly didn't want them to have to rebuild, but I think that is where this is heading.

[KelVarnsen]

I've already written off the Jays offseason

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by JTech780

Apparently the Jays offer to Santander is 4 years $82m. Thats a deal I can live with. Sure it’s a year too long and couple million too much, but that’s the nature of free agency especially for the Blue Jays.

That sounds a lot like - "if anyone else can match this we will go there instead" to me. And while I agree that's a reasonable number for his bat considering free agency and Canada, I also don't think he's enough to right the ship.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1874872860432609305

[JTech780]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

That sounds a lot like - "if anyone else can match this we will go there instead" to me. And while I agree that's a reasonable number for his bat considering free agency and Canada, I also don't think he's enough to right the ship.

I would agree, I don’t think Santander is enough to right the ship either, and they certainly have bigger issues than signing a DH for the next 4 years. They still do need to field a team at the end of the day.

They also don’t have a ton of young guys knocking down the door pushing for at bats.

[flambers]

Yep. Jays basically have not addressed any of their items going into the offseason,

If this was the end of the off season,

I would guess the Jays will still be bottom of the AL East (either bottom or 2nd from the bottom)

[Roof-Daddy]

Saw a tweet that claimed Bregman was down to either the Jays or the Tigers.

Probably suck a few years from now, but signing him and Santander might save the off season, at least on paper.

Probably won't get either though haha

[Strange Brew]

Sounds like maybe the market for Bregman has dried up, a la Correa and Montgomery. May not take a super long term deal. Maybe a three year deal with player opt outs?

[Mass_nerder]

Probably going to be a bottom finish again this year, it looks like Shatkins are prepared to let Vladdy and Bob walk for nothing, our prospect base in bottom 10 (5?) and our player development is notoriously bad.
The future looks bleak.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

Probably going to be a bottom finish again this year, it looks like Shatkins are prepared to let Vladdy and Bob walk for nothing, our prospect base in bottom 10 (5?) and our player development is notoriously bad.
The future looks bleak.

This is terrible and made worse by the fact that we're a top 5 spending team these days. Just embarrassing on every level. This clown duo has ruined 10 years of Blue Jays baseball from start to finish.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by jayswin

This is terrible and made worse by the fact that we're a top 5 spending team these days. Just embarrassing on every level. This clown duo has ruined 10 years of Blue Jays baseball from start to finish.

They came in an inherited a team on its way down.

Built it back up and made the playoffs 3 out of 4 years and were one game away from being in the post season 4 straight years averaging 90 wins per season.

They've hardly been as bad as people make them out to be.

Their biggest flaw is drafting and developing.

But they also had a very flawed core to build around.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

They came in an inherited a team on its way down.

Built it back up and made the playoffs 3 out of 4 years and were one game away from being in the post season 4 straight years averaging 90 wins per season.

They've hardly been as bad as people make them out to be.

Their biggest flaw is drafting and developing.

But they also had a very flawed core to build around.

Measured in their approach, but each of those playoffs years there were needs leading up to the playoffs that were left unaddressed, and then half measures (or no measures) in the offseason to remedy the reason they got booted out of the playoffs early. Money isn't the issue. They're top 6 in payroll.

It was still though trying to do some things on the cheap, and that unwillingness to overpay, along with indecisiveness has snowballed basically since the Seattle debacle and now I don't think anyone in baseball really trusts them as individuals any more/ believes that they believe in the vision of what they claim as are trying to sell, which makes it hard for those FAs to confidently choose Toronto on multi year deals.

Trading Moreno and Teo for Varsho rubbed people the wrong way, both have been to the World Series since and it seemed like a targeted clean out of Vlad cronies, which set Vlad back. Getting Chapman was a good idea and would've been (sure an overpay, but sounds like he wanted to stay at the time, but...) a good re signing last offseason to lock down third base, and also signal the Jays can sign players and quality players at that.

Instead he was ignored and the Daniel Vogelbach/IKF/another year of Kiermier plan was hatched.

[SuperMatt18]

I think there is some of that.

I also just think major Free agents like Soto and Ohtani were always a long shot.

And that for some of the mid-tier American free agents that they just prefer to be in the US especially after COVID. So the Jays have to overpay or end up just being used as leverage.

Originally Posted by browna

Trading Moreno and Teo for Varsho rubbed people the wrong way, both have been to the World Series since and it seemed like a targeted clean out of Vlad cronies, which set Vlad back. Getting Chapman was a good idea and would've been (sure an overpay, but sounds like he wanted to stay at the time, but...) a good re signing last offseason to lock down third base, and also signal the Jays can sign players and quality players at that.

Funny part is before the Teo and Moreno/Gurriel trades happens that was exactly what the media and fan base was calling for.

The team wasn't serious enough, they were bad defensively, didn't have a good bullpen, and the locker room was too much of a frat house and needed to be more serious.

So they traded Teo for bullpen help, traded Moreno/Gurriel for Varsho (who was an A+ defender who's bat looked like it could be better than it has been in Toronto) and actually did what people were asking for.

The mistakes being that they didn't get enough value for Teo (and probably shouldn't have moved him) and trading Moreno instead of selling high on Kirk/Jansen was the issue.

But the actual moves to get rid of the frat house mentality and focus on defense/fundamentals was what the fan base was calling for after the loss in that post season.

[KelVarnsen]

Atkins is like a ####ier Tre.