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Old 03-03-2011, 12:49 PM   #241
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And myself(and probably many others), being less polarized than the more vocal people in this thread came into this topic curious about what people have to say. Unsurprisingly I see mostly bickering and insults, when I see that I can't take anything you say seriously because you look equally childish as the willfully ignorant. That's why it's counterproductive, you aren't going to convert the ignorant with insults and the objective and curious have trouble giving credence to the opinions of the arrogant and condescending.
It's not about converting the ignorant. They are unconvertible. It's about convincing the undecided, the fence-sitters, the otherwise-uninterested, and those who haven't thought enough about the subject to form an opinion. The truly objective will side with the most and best evidence, regardless of arrogance or condescension from either side.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:01 PM   #242
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Ironic, considering your avatar.
Only if you have an extremely incorrect view of evolution.

(good dodge btw)
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:03 PM   #243
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No wonder it's so hard to get the maroons to accept that humans are changing the climate if so many people still can't wrap their simple minds around this issue.

We just aren't wired to be foremost logical it seems.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:11 PM   #244
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It's not about converting the ignorant. They are unconvertible.
People have to be protected against themselves, that's what it boils down to.

Ideally (idealistically? ) people would make informed decisions based on good information about things in their lives.

Pragmatically, this is impossible, because there is not enough time, resources, or brain space for a single person to be able to know all the information in order to make an informed decision for every decision they make. So many decisions must be delegated.

Not only that, it's been demonstrated that making a good decision even with correct information is very hard, because our brains are not evolved for making good decisions, are brains are evolved to make decisions that don't result in us getting eaten by a tiger in the next 15 seconds.

There are decisions that simply cannot be trusted to an individual, or rather decision where an individual cannot be trusted to make well.

If they want to make that decision and it doesn't affect anyone else, then fine, but most decisions don't happen in a vacuum and DO impact others.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:12 PM   #245
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We just aren't wired to be foremost logical it seems.
Agreed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:32 PM   #246
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Vaccine companies don't have legal immunity; it's just that claims for "vaccine injury" are dealt with using a different process. If the companies had to defend themselves in court not only against every legitimate effect but every parent of an autistic child that decides vaccines must be to blame, no one would be able to afford to manufacture vaccines.

With the science supporting vaccination so strong, and the importance of herd immunity meaning that those who don't vaccinate are not only endangering their own kids, but to a lesser extent other people's kids, I have no problem with anti-vaccine people being insulted.
Kathleen Sebelius signed a decree giving vaccine makers total legal immunity from any lawsuits resulting from the swine flu vaccine.

I don't know why people blindly get vaccinated where in the past vaccines have been recalled or suspended due to adverse reactions, not just in America but abroad. Finland and Sweden for example, suspended swine flu shots after noticing a sudden spike in narcolepsy cases just when the shots came out. There was an obvious time correlation there...

They also stopped a measles vaccine program in India after 4 kids died within minutes of recieving the vaccine.
http://www.themedguru.com/20100822/n...-86139779.html

Since 1986, the U.S. government vaccine court has paid out $1.9 billion to parents whose kids were damaged by vaccines. What does that tell you?

Season flu shots are pointless and ineffective. I'd rather just eat my multi-vitamins and vegetables instead of getting Guillain-Barre Syndrome thanks.

Hell, in the UK, about half of the physicians polled in a survey said they would not get the H1N1 vaccine.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ing-fears.html

For kids vaccinations (MMR etc.), I think the shots should atleast be spread out over a longer period of time.

There are some legitimate concerns out there regarding vaccines. Is it overblown? Maybe, ....but time will tell. In the mean time you guys just continue to sling mud at those who are cautious and think for themselves.
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:34 PM   #247
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No wonder it's so hard to get the maroons to accept that humans are changing the climate if so many people still can't wrap their simple minds around this issue.

We just aren't wired to be foremost logical it seems.
Explain climate change patterns in the thousands of years before the human industrial revolution...

Hint - it's not from CO2.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:03 PM   #248
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They also stopped a measles vaccine program in India after 4 kids died within minutes of recieving an EXPIRED vaccine.
http://www.themedguru.com/20100822/n...-86139779.html
I'll start with this one, fixed it for you.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:03 PM   #249
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Since 1986, the U.S. government vaccine court has paid out $1.9 billion to parents whose kids were damaged by vaccines. What does that tell you?

Season flu shots are pointless and ineffective. I'd rather just eat my multi-vitamins and vegetables instead of getting Guillain-Barre Syndrome thanks.
Payouts by the vaccine court do not always mean the effect was caused by the vaccine (the standard of evidence is fairly low in the vaccine court). Besides, no one is saying there is no chance of adverse effects from a vaccine; only that the benefits far outweigh the risks. Generally when there are severe adverse effects, they are effects that are much more likely to be caused by the disease.

While the effectiveness of the flu shot is still subject to some debate, most of the recent data suggests that in young, healthy people it is pretty effective so long as it includes the right strains (maybe not so effective for the elderly though). Definitely way more effective than eating multi-vitamins and vegetables. And the link between Guillain-Barre Syndrome from flu shots is dubious at best; there was just the one vaccine in the 1970's where there was some evidence of a link, but that was likely due to bacterial contamination and vaccine production has changed a lot since then. There is no evidence of flu vaccines causing GBS since then. Getting influenza, however, has been associated with getting GBS.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:28 PM   #250
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I'll start with this one, fixed it for you.
They didn't confirm they were expired, but even still.....what the hell were the health workers thinking?

The exact quote is:
"According to experts, death after vaccination occurs either due to expiry of vaccine or if it is contaminated making it unfit for human use."
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:37 PM   #251
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Payouts by the vaccine court do not always mean the effect was caused by the vaccine (the standard of evidence is fairly low in the vaccine court). Besides, no one is saying there is no chance of adverse effects from a vaccine; only that the benefits far outweigh the risks. Generally when there are severe adverse effects, they are effects that are much more likely to be caused by the disease.

While the effectiveness of the flu shot is still subject to some debate, most of the recent data suggests that in young, healthy people it is pretty effective so long as it includes the right strains (maybe not so effective for the elderly though). Definitely way more effective than eating multi-vitamins and vegetables. And the link between Guillain-Barre Syndrome from flu shots is dubious at best; there was just the one vaccine in the 1970's where there was some evidence of a link, but that was likely due to bacterial contamination and vaccine production has changed a lot since then. There is no evidence of flu vaccines causing GBS since then. Getting influenza, however, has been associated with getting GBS.
This (bolded) isn't true at all. People have gotten GBS under the last current swine flu scare. Didn't someone post a video of that girl who couldn't walk properly after having a swine flu shot? I don't remember if that was GBS or not, but clearly a neurological problem.

Out of $1.9billion being rewarded, you don't think any of the payouts were from legit vaccine damage?

As for my own personal experience, I would rather risk getting a harmless flu that lasts a few days, than taking even a slight chance at having complications from a vaccine.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:39 PM   #252
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The girl who couldn't walk properly and sometimes seemed to have an Australian accent? Oh yeah that girl which Jenny Mccarthy jumped all over to use her as a poster child of the dangers of vaccines, all up until it was found out she was a complete fraud.

Oops.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:47 PM   #253
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The girl who couldn't walk properly and sometimes seemed to have an Australian accent? Oh yeah that girl which Jenny Mccarthy jumped all over to use her as a poster child of the dangers of vaccines, all up until it was found out she was a complete fraud.

Oops.
Are these frauds?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33845867...h-cold_and_flu

http://www.torontosun.com/news/colum.../12680636.html
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:50 PM   #254
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Explain climate change patterns in the thousands of years before the human industrial revolution...

Hint - it's not from CO2.
More proof.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:57 PM   #255
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More proof.
Shush, things can only ever have one cause and effect forever.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:58 PM   #256
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the research yes, but the regulatory body, Health Canada, is government run. The idea of the government regulating the vaccination of our population while 100% of the people accept it willingly is not a good thing. Skepticism helps enforce proper protocol, ignorance and apathy does not.
And the alternative is what exactly? Research is overseen by the manufacturers alone? Well then it would be 'don't trust it it's from those monolithic corporations'. What's your ideal situation? A mom and pop corner vaccination shop? (has a nice ring to it actually)
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:59 PM   #257
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And the alternative is what exactly? Research is overseen by the manufacturers alone? Well then it would be 'don't trust it it's from those monolithic corporations'. What's your ideal situation? A mom and pop corner vaccination shop? (has a nice ring to it actually)

Personally I'd like to buy my drugs from "good ol' hard workin' folks" like you and me who only answer to one M.D.......Doctor Mom.
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Old 03-03-2011, 03:02 PM   #258
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I don't know why people blindly eat food where in the past foods have been recalled or suspended due to people dying
There, fixed.

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I don't know why people blindly drive cars where in the past cars have been recalled or suspended due to causing accidents
I gather the argument is that if something isn't 100% perfect in design and manufacturing then any downside, no matter how small, means it shouldn't be done in the first place!

Makes perfect sense!
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Old 03-03-2011, 03:12 PM   #259
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What's your ideal situation? A mom and pop corner vaccination shop? (has a nice ring to it actually)
That's what I really don't understand.. I know someone who's very close to a FMOTLer and thinks that there should be no government or anything, just anarchy and free market, there'd be no such thing as vaccines (or any kind of medical research).

So they'd prefer that instead of 18 children dying of measles every hour that be cranked back up to twice that? Or 180? 1,800?
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Old 03-03-2011, 03:25 PM   #260
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This (bolded) isn't true at all. People have gotten GBS under the last current swine flu scare. Didn't someone post a video of that girl who couldn't walk properly after having a swine flu shot? I don't remember if that was GBS or not, but clearly a neurological problem.

Out of $1.9billion being rewarded, you don't think any of the payouts were from legit vaccine damage?

As for my own personal experience, I would rather risk getting a harmless flu that lasts a few days, than taking even a slight chance at having complications from a vaccine.
I didn't say none of the $1.9 billion was legitimate; just that due to the lower standard of evidence there is no way of knowing how much was.

People get GBS all the time. Just because some happened to occur within a few weeks of getting the flu shot doesn't mean that was the cause; the rate of GBS was not significantly higher than normal last year. If there is an effect, it is on the order of 1 in 1 million, compared to about 10 times that chance of getting GBS from the flu (http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/1/48.full).

If you'd rather get the flu than a flu shot, that's your choice (it's not mandatory), though calling it "harmless" is a stretch. Hopefully you don't come into contact with the elderly or immunocompromised if you're infected though.
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