[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

We should know this about Treliving. Like honestly this isn’t going to be popular and I like how he handles his negotiations but from what I can tell he likely lowballs the #### out of people. So Hanifin gets traded here and he’s yes probably excited about playing for the Flames and then he gets a contract offer and is like wtf???

Gaudreau too. Monahan to an extent. That Hamilton deal was outrageous. Any big name player. I’m sorry but we have Gaudreau at an Aav or under $7MM and he’s probably the best LW in the world. If I was Gaudreau and putting up 80 points (and let’s be honest, he has the ability to put up 80), you’re damn right I’m not going to be happy with 6.75AAV. When Gaudreau leaves after this contract is done it’s going to be because he felt taken advantage of because we had the leverage because he was RFA.

Hanifin owes Calgary nothing. He got traded here. And based on Trelivings history and negotiation practice you can see why he isn’t signed yet. Because he’s being lowballed compared to the market most likely. Will he sign? Yes. Because he has no other option and you’d be an idiot not to sign and sit out.

Here comes the posts about “well why did Gaudreau sign long term then?” Because when somebody offers you +30MM of risk free money you take it. But that doesn’t mean you don’t think you’re worth $50MM over 6 yrs and I bet you he is feeling that way right or wrong. He’s probably right, he’s worth >$50MM on a 6 year term today (and even when he was signed).

This is the elephant in the room I notice almost nobody talking about because they’re hockey players making millions. Well you know what? This is business and this is their market value. The elephant in the room is that Treliving lowballs a bit and while it’s great for now because we have absolutely fantastic current value contracts, this could be a recipe for disaster long term and very likely works against the Flames when it comes to fostering resentment with players that feel they’re paid far below market value but due to artificial restrictions are forced to sign at significant market discounts.

Don’t kid yourself if you don’t think the Flames will create a reputation here for being unfair to player contracts / taking advantage of players.

I’m going to politely say this is crap, Brad is doing his job. You are right Hanifin owes Calgary nothing, he also hasn’t accomplished much yet in the league and Treliving is not gonna give him an overblown contract because he traded for him. Tkachuk is due for a raise next offseason and they have acquired more pieces this offseason and cap management in this league is crucial. I’m glad we have a gm that fights for every penny then one who does not, that’s his job. If Gaudreau walks away because he wanted 7 mill compared to 6.75 then he wasn’t gonna stay anyways.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

We should know this about Treliving. Like honestly this isn’t going to be popular and I like how he handles his negotiations but from what I can tell he likely lowballs the #### out of people. So Hanifin gets traded here and he’s yes probably excited about playing for the Flames and then he gets a contract offer and is like wtf???


Gaudreau too. Monahan to an extent. That Hamilton deal was outrageous. Any big name player. I’m sorry but we have Gaudreau at an Aav or under $7MM and he’s probably the best LW in the world. If I was Gaudreau and putting up 80 points (and let’s be honest, he has the ability to put up 80), you’re damn right I’m not going to be happy with 6.75AAV. When Gaudreau leaves after this contract is done it’s going to be because he felt taken advantage of because we had the leverage because he was RFA.

Hanifin owes Calgary nothing. He got traded here. And based on Trelivings history and negotiation practice you can see why he isn’t signed yet. Because he’s being lowballed compared to the market most likely. Will he sign? Yes. Because he has no other option and you’d be an idiot not to sign and sit out.

Here comes the posts about “well why did Gaudreau sign long term then?” Because when somebody offers you +30MM of risk free money you take it. But that doesn’t mean you don’t think you’re worth $50MM over 6 yrs and I bet you he is feeling that way right or wrong. He’s probably right, he’s worth >$50MM on a 6 year term today (and even when he was signed).

This is the elephant in the room I notice almost nobody talking about because they’re hockey players making millions. Well you know what? This is business and this is their market value. The elephant in the room is that Treliving lowballs a bit and while it’s great for now because we have absolutely fantastic current value contracts, this could be a recipe for disaster long term and very likely works against the Flames when it comes to fostering resentment with players that feel they’re paid far below market value but due to artificial restrictions are forced to sign at significant market discounts.

Don’t kid yourself if you don’t think the Flames will create a reputation here for being unfair to player contracts / taking advantage of players.

I see it differently. Treliving is just trying to build a team and he needs everyone to buy in in order to maximize results. I think low-balling is a poor choice of wording. We can't have any wasted contracts, we need to fit everyone in. I think Johnny and the other players understand that. Teams that pay a lot of money for a couple of guys this is going to hurt other parts of those teams short and long term.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Mackinnon can’t wait to get out of Colorado then.

Hall hates his contract.

I can’t believe Toews and Kane re-signed with a Chicago after making only 6.3M per on their 2nd contracts.

The market changes, and the Draisaitl/McDavid deals were deals that re-shaped the market to a degree.

By your logic, Tarasenko is fuming in St Louis and can’t wait to get out and Sidney Crosby must be furious in Pittsburgh.

Contracts are a risk taken on by both parties... while calgary might have lucked out, at the time of the signings, they were fair contracts...

if player x gets injured or underperforms, its not as though they give money back do they?

[Robbob]

The market changes. Looking at the Summer when Barkov, Monahan, Gaudreau, Mackinnon, Scheifele, etc all signed thier contract it was a different environment. It was the Oilers (again) that redefined the market on the second contract.

Bottom line, time or a deadline is a major component of negotiating. There really is still a few weeks before it becomes an issue. Hell, knowing how tight lipped this organization is, the contract is probably done and they have decided to wait until the player gets to Calgary to make it publicity event to kick off the season.

[Gaskal]

Tre doesn't 'lowball' players. He has a set salary range of sorts of where he feels that this particular player fits into both the short and long term cap structure of the team and then they try to use that figure as a starting point. He alluded to this process during his most recent interview with Fan 960.

[Major Major]

Winning solves everything. If the flames go on some deep runs and win a cup, nobody cares that they were on a bargain contract. Jonny will get his on the next one, and I am of the hopes that Treliving goes about the next contracts like yzerman rather than bowman.

[getbak]

Monahan's contract was announced on August 19, two years ago. From what I remember, there wasn't really any difficulty with that deal, it just took as long as it took.


Also, keep in mind that Hanifin isn't the only RFA d-man who is currently unsigned. Nurse, Theodore, and Morrissey are also still unsigned. I wouldn't be surprised if Hanifin is waiting for one of those guys to sign to set the market. If Vegas throws a lot of money at Theodore or Chia Oilers-it-up with Nurse, Hanifin might be able to squeeze a little bit more out of the Flames.

I'm sure it will all be sorted out before they step on the plane to China.

[AltaGuy]

I don't think Treliving is lowballing anybody - I just think he's a tough negotiator.

For those of us with negotiation-heavy jobs, you get used to it. There's a massive difference between people who are tough but fair negotiators and those who are just being aholes for the sake of it. A tough negotiator will take their time and keep communication going even in tense circumstances. You very rarely end up having a negotiation turn personal or petty, and you like the other side throughout the process even if it's really tough.

Then you have the aholes who might lowball (or, on the other side - ask for the moon), and are just goofballs throughout. Those are the ones who cause issues and can gum up even simple stuff unnecessarily.

I've always gotten the sense that Treliving is extremely tough, but earns respect from the players and agents by being forthright, patient, and above pettiness. He's gotten us some great contracts, and we haven't had blowup situations like some other teams in tough negotiations where the parties just can't continue on.

[Tron_fdc]

LOL, I'd rather have Treliving busting balls and saving nickels vs handing out contracts like Oprah does. Or Chiarelli. Same same.

[Huntingwhale]

If the Flames are ever going to make a deep run(s), they are going to need to manage the cap with a fine tooth comb and make sure they have as many value contracts as they can. Personally I couldn't care less if a player signs a value contract, and has hurt feelings over it. The number of players that sign huge inflated contracts then not live up to it seems to be a much larger ratio then the numbers of players who outplay their contract. It's actually quite refreshing to have a GM who doesn't follow the 'script' around the league, and instead does what's best for his own franchise. It's annoying when you see a player sign a huge overpaid contract, then suddenly it seems to be the norm that said contract is now the bar that is set. I'll take BT taking his sweet time negotiating a contract that stresses out fans because the player hasn't signed yet, over someone like Chiarelli in Edmonton giving Draisatl a blank check simply because some fans aren't patient enough to wait it out. There were way too many people on CP clamoring for BT to simply give into Gaudreau and sign him for 8-9M just to 'get it done'. I for one am glad it took so long to get done and now we have him at great savings.

Players are going to try to maximize their earnings. GMs are going to try to squeeze every last dollar to maximize cap savings. Both sides are simply doing their jobs. This isn't Edmonton trying to get a player to literally pay them back (M. Comrie) or clearly low-balling a player (Karlsson) where it's clearly a PR stunt to make the player out to be the bad guy. So to say that players like Gaudreau or Hanafin feel 'insulted' and it gives Calgary a bad reputation is ridiculous.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

We should know this about Treliving. Like honestly this isn’t going to be popular and I like how he handles his negotiations but from what I can tell he likely lowballs the #### out of people. So Hanifin gets traded here and he’s yes probably excited about playing for the Flames and then he gets a contract offer and is like wtf???

Others have commented already, but here's where I take issue with your comments. You have no idea what's going on, yet you start off with a vague "from what I can tell" leading even you to be unsure as it's a "likely". You're guessing, then drawing conclusions from that. Seems reactionary more than anything to a lack of news on Hanifin.

[FlamesFanTrev]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

LOL, I'd rather have Treliving busting balls and saving nickels vs handing out contracts like Oprah does. Or Chiarelli. Same same.

Agreed! I was just talking about this at work the other day. Some people were disappointed with the term Treliving got out of Johnny. What's the best way to get him to resign here? Sell him on the team being a contender! How do you do that? Put a team around him that can compete. You don't do that by overpaying everyone. Calgary just isn't a top 10 or top 15 hockey destination for most players. So you can draft and develop, but if you can't retain, you are going to, at best, be stuck in the same spot year after year. But winning is fun, and a winning team with a winning culture is a hard place to leave for similar money. Treliving is doing the right thing. Hockey is still a team game.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Don’t kid yourself if you don’t think the Flames will create a reputation here for being unfair to player contracts / taking advantage of players.

I recall a poll or interview or something about GMs in the Hockey News, and Treliving rated very highly as a GM that agents liked to deal with. Just because he's a tough negotiator doesn't mean he isn't liked or respected. If you treat people well and above-the-board, without being a dick, then I don't think fighting your corner in negotiations earns you a bad rep.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

We should know this about Treliving. Like honestly this isn’t going to be popular and I like how he handles his negotiations but from what I can tell he likely lowballs the #### out of people. So Hanifin gets traded here and he’s yes probably excited about playing for the Flames and then he gets a contract offer and is like wtf???

Gaudreau too. Monahan to an extent. That Hamilton deal was outrageous. Any big name player. I’m sorry but we have Gaudreau at an Aav or under $7MM and he’s probably the best LW in the world. If I was Gaudreau and putting up 80 points (and let’s be honest, he has the ability to put up 80), you’re damn right I’m not going to be happy with 6.75AAV. When Gaudreau leaves after this contract is done it’s going to be because he felt taken advantage of because we had the leverage because he was RFA.

Hanifin owes Calgary nothing. He got traded here. And based on Trelivings history and negotiation practice you can see why he isn’t signed yet. Because he’s being lowballed compared to the market most likely. Will he sign? Yes. Because he has no other option and you’d be an idiot not to sign and sit out.

Here comes the posts about “well why did Gaudreau sign long term then?” Because when somebody offers you +30MM of risk free money you take it. But that doesn’t mean you don’t think you’re worth $50MM over 6 yrs and I bet you he is feeling that way right or wrong. He’s probably right, he’s worth >$50MM on a 6 year term today (and even when he was signed).

This is the elephant in the room I notice almost nobody talking about because they’re hockey players making millions. Well you know what? This is business and this is their market value. The elephant in the room is that Treliving lowballs a bit and while it’s great for now because we have absolutely fantastic current value contracts, this could be a recipe for disaster long term and very likely works against the Flames when it comes to fostering resentment with players that feel they’re paid far below market value but due to artificial restrictions are forced to sign at significant market discounts.

Don’t kid yourself if you don’t think the Flames will create a reputation here for being unfair to player contracts / taking advantage of players.

I'm sorry but this is a very long post filled with a bunch of crap

[TheScorpion]

The Flames added three 40-point scorers this offseason and subtracted one. Don't think enough people realize this.

[Old Yeller]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Don't think enough people realize this.

I didn't realize this... probably because they subtracted two.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Old Yeller

I didn't realize this... probably because they subtracted two.

I meant up front: in, Ryan, Neal, and Lindholm; out, Ferland. I feel like the downgrade from Hamilton to Hanifin won't be as great as people fear, at least offensively.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Old Yeller

I didn't realize this... probably because they subtracted two.

How about we just do the math?

in
Ryan - 38 points
Lindholm - 44 points
Neal - 44 points
Hanifin - 32 points

out
Ferland - 40 points
Hamilton - 44 points

net gain: 74 points

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

How about we just do the math?

in
Ryan - 38 points
Lindholm - 44 points
Neal - 44 points
Hanifin - 32 points

out
Ferland - 40 points
Hamilton - 44 points

net gain: 74 points

Nope. You can't add four players for two.

in
Ryan - 38 points
Lindholm - 44 points
Neal - 44 points
Hanifin - 32 points

out
Ferland - 40 points
Hamilton - 44 points
Stajan - 12 points
Brouwer - 22 points

net gain: 40 points

[Sutter4Mayor]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

We should know this about Treliving. Like honestly this isn’t going to be popular and I like how he handles his negotiations but from what I can tell he likely lowballs the #### out of people. So Hanifin gets traded here and he’s yes probably excited about playing for the Flames and then he gets a contract offer and is like wtf???

Gaudreau too. Monahan to an extent. That Hamilton deal was outrageous. Any big name player. I’m sorry but we have Gaudreau at an Aav or under $7MM and he’s probably the best LW in the world. If I was Gaudreau and putting up 80 points (and let’s be honest, he has the ability to put up 80), you’re damn right I’m not going to be happy with 6.75AAV. When Gaudreau leaves after this contract is done it’s going to be because he felt taken advantage of because we had the leverage because he was RFA.

Hanifin owes Calgary nothing. He got traded here. And based on Trelivings history and negotiation practice you can see why he isn’t signed yet. Because he’s being lowballed compared to the market most likely. Will he sign? Yes. Because he has no other option and you’d be an idiot not to sign and sit out.

Here comes the posts about “well why did Gaudreau sign long term then?” Because when somebody offers you +30MM of risk free money you take it. But that doesn’t mean you don’t think you’re worth $50MM over 6 yrs and I bet you he is feeling that way right or wrong. He’s probably right, he’s worth >$50MM on a 6 year term today (and even when he was signed).

This is the elephant in the room I notice almost nobody talking about because they’re hockey players making millions. Well you know what? This is business and this is their market value. The elephant in the room is that Treliving lowballs a bit and while it’s great for now because we have absolutely fantastic current value contracts, this could be a recipe for disaster long term and very likely works against the Flames when it comes to fostering resentment with players that feel they’re paid far below market value but due to artificial restrictions are forced to sign at significant market discounts.

Don’t kid yourself if you don’t think the Flames will create a reputation here for being unfair to player contracts / taking advantage of players.