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Old 07-20-2018, 03:47 PM   #11701
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Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis View Post
Trump is well known to have been a frequent guest at Jeffrey Epstein's "Pedo Island" along with many other rich and powerful men. I'm surprised we haven't heard Epstein's name more given he could destroy many very powerful people.
I always thought that his arrest would be the start of some big and powerful men being exposed and ultimately arrested as well.

This idea of rich older men having sex parties with teenage girls is as old as time, and how they manage to keep it under wraps is scary.. Power and money
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Old 07-20-2018, 04:25 PM   #11702
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Sure, many leftists opposed Brexit, and there is some overlap with the "elites". But efforts to roll back Brexit have come from the elite globalists and corporations because it hurts their pocketbook.
The educated liberal elite in the UK - the banks, most of the media, the mainsteam of both parties - opposed Brexit. When Leave won, it sent the Guardian into a meltdown that hasn't stopped.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-david-cameron

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I think the major point about all of this is simply: money is the ultimate power behind any actual effective scheme in a post-truth world. Cigarette companies and certain oil and gas interests figured this out in one way, and the Russians did in another.
And I think the 10 per centers - the educated liberal corporate elite - are appalled and dismayed by the populist upheavals of the last few years. Trump and Brexit weren't schemes orchestrated by the ultra-wealthy at the top, they're eruptions from below against the status quo and those who benefit from the status quo.

I don't have time to go into the rest of it today.
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.

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Old 07-20-2018, 04:45 PM   #11703
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Why do you need excitement to vote? It's not about following it's about understanding how a democracy functions. Excitement and desire to "follow" someone is not something a you should need.

And I say that knowing full well that excitement was what won Obama those elections. This goes to both sides of the aisle.

Theoretically you shouldn't need excitement to vote. Theoretically everyone should be engaged in the political process and learning as much as they can about every issue and candidate.

In the real world people vote with their heads and hearts but not always in equal measure.

In the real world Americans voted for Trump.

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Boring should be absolutely acceptable when choosing leadership. Right now it's not and that is a problem.
Think about the people that you would be considered to be the greatest leaders you personally know. Would you consider them boring or at least a little engaging? Do they capture and hold your attention or do they fade into the background? Think about some of the most famous leaders in history: Kennedy, Churchill, Lincoln, Gandhi, MLK Jr. and even Hitler. While their personalities and platforms differed wildly they were able to get people to follow their lead with their message AND with their delivery (in the case of Hitler, Trump and others it is mostly delivery).

It's nice to say that the message should be enough but that's not how people are wired.
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Old 07-20-2018, 04:46 PM   #11704
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"Undemocratic liberalism vs illiberal democracy" has been bandied about for a couple years now by the punditry.

https://www.economist.com/books-and-...acy-fell-apart
Oh well, all you had to do was say Yascha Mounk. I mean, who can argue with Yascha Mounk? If Yascha Mounk has said it, then there's definitely something there. Democracy is dead, and its definitely the fault of liberals and leftists everywhere.

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Old 07-20-2018, 04:49 PM   #11705
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Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
The educated liberal elite in the UK - the banks, most of the media, the mainsteam of both parties - opposed Brexit. When Leave won, it sent the Guardian into a meltdown that hasn't stopped.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-david-cameron



And I think the 10 per centers - the educated liberal corporate elite - are appalled and dismayed by the populist upheavals of the last few years. Trump and Brexit weren't schemes orchestrated by the ultra-wealthy at the top, they're eruptions from below against the status quo and those who benefit from the status quo.

I don't have time to go into the rest of it today.
We'll all be waiting.

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Old 07-20-2018, 05:15 PM   #11706
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https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ocracy/559130/
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Old 07-20-2018, 05:43 PM   #11707
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Too funny - I was about to post the exact link.

Another article on the same subject:

http://www.newgeography.com/content/...viding-america

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...Class increasingly defines America’s new Culture Wars, pitting the rising power of well-educated, and self-regarding, supermen (or should I say super-people), against those they regard as less cognitively gifted. This clerisy – the media, academia, the well-funded progressive non-profits – is now waging what the Atlantic recently called ‘a war on stupid people’, which, of course, extends particularly to those who back the loutish Trump. As a group, this educated caste shares increasingly uniformly progressive social views and are almost 50 per cent more likely to be Democrats than Republicans.

There are good reasons for the new cognitive class to like the progressive status quo. Along with the corporate aristocracy who fund the Democratic Party, the hyper-educated have thrived under Obama. In contrast, the bulk of the working and middle class have seen their incomes stagnate or decline...
I think when AltaGuy talk of the rich he means the uber-wealthy, the shadowy Gnomes of Zurich. I when I talk of the rich I mean people who hang out at the Apple Store and Starbucks.
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.

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Old 07-20-2018, 05:50 PM   #11708
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We'll all be waiting.
Everything I write here is inspired by stuff I read in the Atlantic, the Guardian, the New York Times, and the Economist. I link to most of it.

Where do you get your news?
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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Old 07-20-2018, 06:21 PM   #11709
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Is “educated liberal” supposed to be a bad thing?
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Old 07-20-2018, 06:46 PM   #11710
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Is “educated liberal” supposed to be a bad thing?
It's a bad thing when educated liberals form a political and cultural class that no longer recognizes the concerns of the working class - or worse, openly expresses contempt for working class culture. It leaves the deplorables ripe to be exploited by demagogues.

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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/o...s-piketty.html

Over the past few decades, political scientists have advanced a broad range of arguments to explain why democracy has failed to stem the growth of inequality...

In a January Power Point presentation, “Brahmin Left vs Merchant Right,” Piketty documents how the domination of the Democratic Party here (and of socialist parties in France) by voters without college or university degrees came to an end over the period from 1948 to 2017. Both parties are now led by highly educated voters whose interests are markedly different from those in the working class...

- New York Times
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Old 07-20-2018, 06:58 PM   #11711
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Here’s a study on Trump voters from 2017 which identified five different Trump “blocks.”

Of note, one of the blocks is categorized as “anti-elite” however this only made up 19% of Trump’s ‘coalition’ whereas Staunch Conservatives were 31% and Free-Marketers were 25%.

https://www.voterstudygroup.org/publ...s-trump-voters

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Trump voters hold very different views on a wide variety of issues including immigration, race, American identity, moral traditionalism, trade, and economics.

Four issues distinguish Trump voters from non-Trump voters: attitudes toward Hillary Clinton, evaluations of the economy, views about illegal immigration, and views about Muslim immigration.
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Old 07-20-2018, 07:15 PM   #11712
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Clinton won by 8 points among voters who earn $50K or less a year. She won union households by the same margin. She won self-described moderates by 12 points. Trying to paint this as an anti-liberal elite reaction is missing the mark greatly.

Ultimately, despite peoples' chagrin at the notion of identity politics, race and sex were by far the best demographic predictors of how people voted, as they were far more correlated to voting patterns than income or educational attainment were.
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Old 07-20-2018, 07:42 PM   #11713
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Education correlated pretty well. Here’s 538.com from Nov. 22, 2016

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...ote-for-trump/

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In short, it appears as though educational levels are the critical factor in predicting shifts in the vote between 2012 and 2016
Emphasis is in the original.
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Old 07-20-2018, 07:44 PM   #11714
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It's a bad thing when educated liberals form a political and cultural class that no longer recognizes the concerns of the working class
Educated people who are liberals and buy Starbucks aren’t part of the working class?
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Old 07-20-2018, 07:52 PM   #11715
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Educated people who are liberals and buy Starbucks aren’t part of the working class?
No, they're not.
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Old 07-20-2018, 07:55 PM   #11716
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Everything I write here is inspired by stuff I read in the Atlantic, the Guardian, the New York Times, and the Economist. I link to most of it.

Where do you get your news?
The exact same places, so I am blown away that someone with any semblance of intelligence comes to the nonsensical conclusions you're going on about. Liberals are responsible for the fall of democracy? Liberals are the cause of the rise of the alt-right? Liberals are the driver behind the downfall of the education system? Hell, Liberals are the cause of the downfall of liberalism! Liberals are responsible for pretty well every evil that is happening around the globe right now, even though the drivers for all of this is an extreme right ideology and a hardcore conservatism. How is it that this is not the most obvious thing possible to comprehend? I mean, I just don't get some the wild conclusions that people are jumping to, contrary to the proof we see each and every day in business, congress, and almost everywhere else you care to observe.
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Old 07-20-2018, 08:36 PM   #11717
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No, they're not.
What about liberals who like Starbucks but didn’t bother with college?
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Old 07-20-2018, 09:31 PM   #11718
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New take from Jonathan Pie.

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