CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Rossetti is involved in the project, they are based in Detroit and are also involved in Al Ain Sports Complex in Dubai that contains an Olympic track, soccer stadium, natatorium, arena and tennis stadium. They also did TD Garden & the Canadian Tire Centre.

Perhaps judging whether a firm is qualified or not should be based on their resume not though some renderings?

Yep, the resume and design standard are more important.

On a side note, I'm a huge fan of Populous; they're sports designers too. Love their stuff. www.populous.com. Wish they were on this job!

[polak]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

I'm working on it. The Arena might look good in the end but I might question the longevity of the building. It's a fixed budget, this was known from the start, so when they realize the the piles are going to eat up more than they estimated, they need to get that money from somewhere else in the building. If the city is going to put 400 million or whatever the number is, then why not put in 450 and ensure that the Arena is actually decent, instead they are cutting stuff out from the original plans to make it work.

It's like the Football field in Calgary, if they are going to build one the build it with enough seats to attract large scale events like the world cup.

Well this isn't exactly reassuring but seems to fall in line with this mess.

Super job flames.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Table 5

He was actually at the Calgary Sun.

I believe he was at both over the years.

[TheAlpineOracle]

I am a big backer of any sporting project in this city, and honestly don't care if the City pays a large portion of the sporting infrastructure. That said, this project is just an absolute joke. For years I listened to Ken King talk about this project and how they weren't going to rush into it and make it public until they've dotted the i's and crossed the t's. I went to the CalgaryNEXT Opening presentation last year like a kid in a candy store, and left with nothing but disappointment because it was some half-assed pipe dream with a bunch of crude artist renderings. This is just one PR nightmare after another. Ken King just looks like a used car salesman now or the boy who cried wolf.

If you are coming and asking for public funding, you goddamn well better have a vision of something that it will be extremely hard to say no to.

[Tinordi]

CalgaryNEXT sucks

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Parallex

It is what you said.

I got your intention (and I actually completely agree with it)... but it's still silly to hope that it comes out expensive. CS&E funding model as it's presented is quite dishonest (as is the fact that they present 100% public ownership as a positive aspect of their proposal). That's true regardless of whether the environmental assessment says it costs $5.00 or $500,000,000.00. I'm opposed to the funding model as is currently known and the environmental assessment won't change that.

Remediation will be expensive though. CS&E seem to be the ones of the opinion that it's no big deal because it needs to be done. If it comes back that it will be costly (which would surprise no one) we should see how committed the Flames are to CalgaryNEXT. The City has no choice but to say we can't allocate the CRL to fund the project. It's required to clean and upgrade the area.

I'm not hoping it costs some enormous amount of money no one expected and that it requires more than what the city can get for the CRL and land sales and everyone in Sunnyside gets rectal cancer, just that it blows enough holes in the project that it may be possible to move on to alternative funding proposals.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Muta

Yep, the resume and design standard are more important.

On a side note, I'm a huge fan of Populous; they're sports designers too. Love their stuff. www.populous.com. Wish they were on this job!

They seem like a MUCH larger firm, but you are right they have done some beautiful work. Their ballparks IMO are most of the best in MLB; especially Camden Yards, what a beautiful ballpark.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Barnes

I'm not hoping it costs some enormous amount of money no one expected and that it requires more than what the city can get for the CRL and land sales and everyone in Sunnyside gets rectal cancer, just that it blows enough holes in the project that it may be possible to move on to alternative funding proposals.

I understand that... what I'm saying is they have to move on to alternative funding proposals even if the cost is "free". If the cost is insanely huge (to remove rather then to merely contain) then the project is basically DOA in the West Village and CS&E will have to explore alternate sites. If the cost is cheap, or more likely manageable, then the project is still alive at that location and the parties can move to discussing funding and ownership models (the current one being a non-starter in my eyes).

I think that's why we haven't really seen the city discuss financing yet... why bother until we see the assessment and know if the site itself is even a viable option at the current time.

[Zarley]

Yikes, why do people get so rancorous when this topic comes up?

Originally Posted by Table 5

I'd be much more confident with that statement if it was someone like CMLC in charge, not Ken King. The guy has no planning/development experience, and thus there's nothing there to be back up his claims. The architects might do a masterful job, but at the end of the day they are working within parameters set by the client...parameters which to me feel poorly thought out. That comes from the top.

I don't think this is one we can whiff on or leave it to chance. If the Flames want to build in the West Village, it has to be done right because so many other things are affected. The riverfront, bike paths, Bow Trail, the tax base, possible Olympic aspirations, and the entire viability of West Village. It's all tied together.

I still think the Flames are better off just building a hockey stadium on/near the Stampede grounds. I know it may not fit into their scheme to get free cash/land, but I don't see them pulling CalgaryNEXT off as-is.

Good post, I largely agree with you with the exception of point on the Flames building an arena on its own. The combination of an arena and stadium is the best (or perhaps the only good) aspect of the current Calgary Next proposal for a number of reasons:

- Significant costs savings due to economies of scale for back of house and mechanical/electrical facilities.
- A higher frequency of events augmented by constant activity at the field-house will contribute to the overall success of the district as vibrant anchor for redevelopment.
- We are in need of a new stadium more so than an arena and this project provides a way to minimize public expenditure (public dollars will be required for a new stadium regardless of whether it is standalone or not, a privately financed stadium is not workable in Canada).

Originally Posted by Barnes

In all seriousness, I hope that next month the remediation report comes back and the projected cost is in the hundreds of millions. Then the CMLC and the City can say that every lot and block is required in the WV for them to sell and collect CRL to pay for remediation and infrastructure upgrades.

Why would you hope for that? Taxpayers will be on the hook for the cleanup of the site regardless of what is developed there, unless we leave the site contaminated and don't mind pollution leeching across the river. Lower remediation costs benefit us all.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Remediation will be expensive though. CS&E seem to be the ones of the opinion that it's no big deal because it needs to be done. If it comes back that it will be costly (which would surprise no one) we should see how committed the Flames are to CalgaryNEXT. The City has no choice but to say we can't allocate the CRL to fund the project. It's required to clean and upgrade the area.

I'm not hoping it costs some enormous amount of money no one expected and that it requires more than what the city can get for the CRL and land sales and everyone in Sunnyside gets rectal cancer, just that it blows enough holes in the project that it may be possible to move on to alternative funding proposals.

but I don't want rectal cancer

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

just looks like a used car salesman now

But it’s an amazing car… it’s a car and truck in one, it has great fuel economy, the rear seats fold down... It also has a bunch of other features I can’t tell you about right now. Also, if you pay extra we can put in a sunroof for you. I’ll even throw in all four tires and a radio because I’m such a great guy. Of course I don’t actually have the car here or even a good picture of it but why don’t I draw it on this napkin for you. Not a great picture I know, but the real one is amazing. You should start making plans for what you’re going to do with all the hot chicks you’re going to get with this car… And it’s all yours for $150,000 but don’t worry, you don’t have to pay for it now, that’s what financing is for. Booyah! I’m awesome! Sign right here.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Basically it boils down to two things people take issue with:
- The renderings (which are being interpreted as the final version).
- Ken King's amateur presentation.

3. The funding model is poorly conceived. First, it doesn't cover the entire scope of the project. It excludes the infrastructure and site cleanup. It is safe to assume they think that will be born by the taxpayer and it was disingenuous of the owners to exclude that from their presentation. Second, it is going to take a long time for the CRL to yield a net gain in property taxes when you consider east village and belt line development.

Originally Posted by Regorium

KK just confirmed that he wants the 250M ticket tax to be fronted by the city.

Called that one pretty easily.

Cool. 6% interest sounds about right.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

But it’s an amazing car… it’s a car and truck in one, it has great fuel economy, the rear seats fold down... It also has a bunch of other features I can’t tell you about right now. Also, if you pay extra we can put in a sunroof for you. I’ll even throw in all four tires and a radio because I’m such a great guy. Of course I don’t actually have the car here or even a good picture of it but why don’t I draw it on this napkin for you. Not a great picture I know, but the real one is amazing. You should start making plans for what you’re going to do with all the hot chicks you’re going to get with this car… And it’s all yours for $150,000 but don’t worry, you don’t have to pay for it now, that’s what financing is for. Booyah! I’m awesome! Sign right here.

World class car. Could save the city, this car.

[Funkhouser]

Originally Posted by Muta

Right, and I'm not involved in the production of any of the drawings, the renderings, or the selection of the design team. None of that. You'll have to look elsewhere for answers on that. I'm not connected in any way to that at all, and never have been.

I'm surprised though about the architect, since one of the designers is Rossetti, a well-known sports and entertainment designer. I would have expected better renderings from them too.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were involved or responsible for the outcome!

[Funkhouser]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Rossetti is involved in the project, they are based in Detroit and are also involved in Al Ain Sports Complex in Dubai that contains an Olympic track, soccer stadium, natatorium, arena and tennis stadium. They also did TD Garden & the Canadian Tire Centre.

Perhaps judging whether a firm is qualified or not should be based on their resume not though some renderings?

You're right, I was judging them based on the renderings I saw, but the lack of quality could have been as a result of poor management on the flames side (which is the way I'm leaning)

[Cappy]

Just remember that Ottawa received these renderings:

http://www.ncc-ccn.gc.ca/planning/ma...erel-dls-group

http://www.ncc-ccn.gc.ca/planning/ma...lebreton-group

[Tyler]

Well that was an awesome and informative piece on the CTV news tonight!

[greentree]

Originally Posted by Table 5

He was actually at the Calgary Sun.

Actually...Ken King served as publisher at the Sun, and he also served as publisher at the Herald. Not at the same time, tho.
Those were the good ol' pre-monopoly days.

[Table 5]

Interesting, good to know.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Where am I bragging? I don't like the publicly-released rendering. I have made that very clear multiple times.

Basically it boils down to two things people take issue with:
- The renderings (which are being interpreted as the final version).
- Ken King's amateur presentation.

I have made several critical posts in this thread and never once said anything about renderings or blind-hate for KK. I'm not the only one.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It's rather self-evident that the Flames need someone else to front the ticket tax. If the Flames do it themselves, then the NHLPA argues that the "tax" is merely a fiction designed to hide revenue and would accuse the team of circumventing the CBA. If someone else pays at the front end, the team would have an easier time justifying the tax as something separate from the ticket price.

This is an internal business concern. Certainly something to be considered in negotiations, but many, many tax payers don't care about the how HRR plays out for the NHL.

Originally Posted by Tinordi

CalgaryNEXT sucks

CalgaryNEXT is no good.


I am intrigued by the combined facility idea, but have many questions/concerns about how it will play out in reality. The public good for amateur sports is good, but is anyone else concerned about accessiblity on the ~70 busy nights (Flames, Stamps, concerts) and ~60 moderately busy nights (Hitmen, Roughnecks, smaller events)? The central location loses a lot of appeal when 1/3 of the time it will be a major PITA to get there.