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Old 09-25-2023, 05:31 PM   #8461
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Everyone does like to condemn "Shatkins" for the build of the team. But despite a lot of guys not having good seasons offensively they have hung in there. So you could argue that the floor of this team is higher than past versions at the expense of a lower ceiling. But over 162 games the high floor squad has a better chance to make the playoffs.

The pitching has been relatively healthy and having 4 guys throw 162 innings on a staff is nearly unheard of in today's game. So that's allowed them to win a lot of games that were a bit ugly. It's surprising how churning out 5 wins every 9 games adds up in Baseball.
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Old 09-25-2023, 08:09 PM   #8462
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This team just isn't clutch. I can't see how they break out and suddenly get good to go even close to all the way. Even as a fan who wants the team to do well to feel that excitement in the city, there's a huge part of me who wants them to fall flat (as most of the year has been mediocre), so that managements' miscues can't be covered up to say, "hey, we made the playoffs so there's something there". This team has not lived up to expectations, and there has to be a deep examination of why. If I were to guess there's something amiss in the clubhouse, and I truly think that's because of the fingers indirectly pointed at Vlad with his buddies dealt. Completely speculation but there hasn't been that great patient approach we've seen a few years back.
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Old 09-25-2023, 08:19 PM   #8463
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Well that sounds like a fun attitude to have heading into the playoffs!
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Old 09-25-2023, 08:41 PM   #8464
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This team just isn't clutch. I can't see how they break out and suddenly get good to go even close to all the way. Even as a fan who wants the team to do well to feel that excitement in the city, there's a huge part of me who wants them to fall flat (as most of the year has been mediocre), so that managements' miscues can't be covered up to say, "hey, we made the playoffs so there's something there". This team has not lived up to expectations, and there has to be a deep examination of why. If I were to guess there's something amiss in the clubhouse, and I truly think that's because of the fingers indirectly pointed at Vlad with his buddies dealt. Completely speculation but there hasn't been that great patient approach we've seen a few years back.
Just yesterday they scored 5 runs with two outs and nobody on base in an inning. The day before that they came back from a few runs down to tie it and then take the lead (unfortunate blown save by Romano). The day before that they were down early and came back to win.

Look, they've had ups and downs all year, but they're heating up heading into the playoffs and have found that swagger and clutch play. They have just as good a shot as any team, and if the pitching continues to do well, they could win it all.

Sorry, you're wrong. If you make the playoffs in baseball, it's a rare thing. The management doesn't need to reassess or examine anything deeply.

Enjoy the game, have some faith, and have some fun.
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Old 09-25-2023, 08:58 PM   #8465
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Just yesterday they scored 5 runs with two outs and nobody on base in an inning. The day before that they came back from a few runs down to tie it and then take the lead (unfortunate blown save by Romano). The day before that they were down early and came back to win.

Look, they've had ups and downs all year, but they're heating up heading into the playoffs and have found that swagger and clutch play. They have just as good a shot as any team, and if the pitching continues to do well, they could win it all.

Sorry, you're wrong. If you make the playoffs in baseball, it's a rare thing. The management doesn't need to reassess or examine anything deeply.

Enjoy the game, have some faith, and have some fun.



I want them to win, but I'm looking at the team all year and seeing bad signs. Certainly the past week or so they've turned it around but it isn't much to get my senses tingling to think they've turned a corner. I do hope though.
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Old 09-25-2023, 09:07 PM   #8466
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This team just isn't clutch. I can't see how they break out and suddenly get good to go even close to all the way. Even as a fan who wants the team to do well to feel that excitement in the city, there's a huge part of me who wants them to fall flat (as most of the year has been mediocre), so that managements' miscues can't be covered up to say, "hey, we made the playoffs so there's something there". This team has not lived up to expectations, and there has to be a deep examination of why. If I were to guess there's something amiss in the clubhouse, and I truly think that's because of the fingers indirectly pointed at Vlad with his buddies dealt. Completely speculation but there hasn't been that great patient approach we've seen a few years back.
You don't think they can break out so you don't want them to break out? (so that you'll be right?)

Here's another option - they DO break out, and have a good playoff run. Wouldn't that be a better thing to hope for?
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Old 09-25-2023, 09:12 PM   #8467
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You don't think they can break out so you don't want them to break out? (so that you'll be right?)

Here's another option - they DO break out, and have a good playoff run. Wouldn't that be a better thing to hope for?

It's not about me being right. There's clearly something been off this year on this team. They are on paper much better. So I'd want a deep look into why it's been off all year. I wouldn't want management to get off scott free by making the playoffs and using it as some excuse. But I do want to see them go all the way as a fan. I just don't buy that this team has turned the corner based on a one week solid run.
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Old 09-25-2023, 09:40 PM   #8468
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Its baseball.

Generally every team wins at least 60, every team loses at least 60...its all what you do with the other 42.

The Jays are 27-9 in those other games.

They are fine. Tied for 6th in the entire MLB. They also play in the single hardest division in baseball.

No team is guaranteed winning the whole thing, but they are real close to the top of those who get a shot at it.
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Old 09-25-2023, 10:14 PM   #8469
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The Jays look a lot better lately
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Old 09-25-2023, 10:16 PM   #8470
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I'll agree, I think the fans want the team to be more "loveable" as far as character and outward personality....and hitting more HRs, and a lot of that in both cases is Vladdy. Where we discussed that here in the thread earlier, who's been isolated this year with his pals from last year gone and he seems much more muted.

Outside of Springer and some of his theatrics, most of the other players are pretty buttoned down in this team. Chapman, Merrifield, Varsho etc.

Also, interesting to see stats today on SNet that HR's at Skydome are down and runs are significantly down, which no one saw after the adjustment to the dimensions in the offseason. So that vaunted offense expected just isn't there.

But Jays fans, as mentioned, always want some characters on their team to feel more comnected. No HR jacket this year, no Manoah taking #### etc.. so in 10 or less games in for a rookie, people have mustaches on by those fans grasping for that personality. In past it's been Donaldson being a dick, Bautista, EE and his parrot, Stroman and his swagger, Kawasaki hamming it up, even Gibby providing some sound bytes.

On that topic, sort of, have the Jays had a bench clearer this season?

Even with the tight media partner, they couldn't conjure up some team personality, since their really isn't any...but in its place they are on pace for playoffs, which was the goal.

That said, getting out of round 1 and there will be some good stories that don't have to be manufactured.

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Old 09-25-2023, 10:48 PM   #8471
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The Jays didn’t quite find a team identity this season. There weren’t many big signature moments…hopefully they are saving those for the next few weeks. I think the best word to describe this team’s personality is the least sexy one…steady. They could never string together a long win streak but also never went on massive losing streaks. They just kind of stayed in the middle.

In the end, it seems like things will work out and they’ll make the playoffs. I hope the last few games are rather meaningless but I would really love to go into the playoffs with a few wins in a row. They’ve struggled to build momentum this season but if there is a time to do do it, now is the time.
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Old 09-25-2023, 11:10 PM   #8472
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Mariners lose again. That's 7 straight losses against teams not named Oakland and 10 straight losses to teams over 500. Safe to say that they turned into a Pumpkin.
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Old 09-25-2023, 11:24 PM   #8473
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It's not about me being right. There's clearly something been off this year on this team. They are on paper much better. So I'd want a deep look into why it's been off all year. I wouldn't want management to get off scott free by making the playoffs and using it as some excuse. But I do want to see them go all the way as a fan. I just don't buy that this team has turned the corner based on a one week solid run.
It seems like you are looking for a result to validate conclusions you have already reached
If they go on a run why shouldnít management get praise? Isnít that kinda the point?
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Old 09-26-2023, 04:22 AM   #8474
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I think Iíve explained my position at this point. Iím entirely skeptical of management this year and while I want the Jays to do well, I donít want management to be exempt from the underperformance of the team throughout the year. Thereís something to be said about a loveable team who puts in effort and makes good decisions. This year save the past week theyíve made bad decisions all year. Say they somehow win it all, imo, they should still examine what went wrong for most of the season. I donít see the problem with not fully buying into the team given whatís gone on this year.
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Old 09-26-2023, 04:50 AM   #8475
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I'll agree, I think the fans want the team to be more "loveable" as far as character and outward personality....and hitting more HRs, and a lot of that in both cases is Vladdy. Where we discussed that here in the thread earlier, who's been isolated this year with his pals from last year gone and he seems much more muted.

Outside of Springer and some of his theatrics, most of the other players are pretty buttoned down in this team. Chapman, Merrifield, Varsho etc.

Also, interesting to see stats today on SNet that HR's at Skydome are down and runs are significantly down, which no one saw after the adjustment to the dimensions in the offseason. So that vaunted offense expected just isn't there.

But Jays fans, as mentioned, always want some characters on their team to feel more comnected. No HR jacket this year, no Manoah taking #### etc.. so in 10 or less games in for a rookie, people have mustaches on by those fans grasping for that personality. In past it's been Donaldson being a dick, Bautista, EE and his parrot, Stroman and his swagger, Kawasaki hamming it up, even Gibby providing some sound bytes.

On that topic, sort of, have the Jays had a bench clearer this season?

Even with the tight media partner, they couldn't conjure up some team personality, since their really isn't any...but in its place they are on pace for playoffs, which was the goal.

That said, getting out of round 1 and there will be some good stories that don't have to be manufactured.
A lot of really good points in this post
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Old 09-26-2023, 08:57 AM   #8476
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Jays' magic number against SEA is 4

And their magic number against HOU is 4

So if the Jays win today, their magic number will drop to 2 against today's loser in the SEA-HOU game (and to 3 against the winner)
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Old 09-26-2023, 09:59 AM   #8477
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I think I’ve explained my position at this point. I’m entirely skeptical of management this year and while I want the Jays to do well, I don’t want management to be exempt from the underperformance of the team throughout the year. There’s something to be said about a loveable team who puts in effort and makes good decisions. This year save the past week they’ve made bad decisions all year. Say they somehow win it all, imo, they should still examine what went wrong for most of the season. I don’t see the problem with not fully buying into the team given what’s gone on this year.
I generally think people overthink it a bit too.

Only a couple things have hurt them this year:

1) Power bats haven't provided the expected power and Slugging with runners in scoring position has been abysmal.

2) Some weird decisions from Schneider

3) Manoah

Jays bats are actually 9th in the MLB in batting average, and 8th in OBP, they've been able to get on base. Down a bit year over year but not that bad (AVG: .264 VS .256 ; OBP: .329 VS .329)

They are just probably going to be down about 10-15 HRs (200 last year - 7th vs 180 this year - 16th), which actually isn't as jarring of a drop as I thought it'd be, and the slugging is down a bit (SLG: .431 vs .416)

But the biggest difference is the slugging has really dropped off with runners in scoring position:

AVG / OBP / SLG

Last year: .258 / .339 / .433
This year: .260 / .341 / .390

Don't think it's something that requires a deep critical intervention - they just have really struggled to get multibase hits with runners in scoring position, which means they have struggled to get runs in bunches and have really had to grind to get runs this year.

Schneider has made some weird and questionable decisions at times, but honestly when you look around the MLB you see almost every team with the same complaints about their managers.

I do think there is something the org has to look at with their starting pitchers at the major league level...a bit of a history now of younger guys really struggling when given the ACE role in Toronto (Romero, Sanchez, Stroman, Hutchinson, Manoah). Opening day starter curse.

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Old 09-26-2023, 11:19 AM   #8478
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I generally think people overthink it a bit too.

Only a couple things have hurt them this year:

1) Power bats haven't provided the expected power and Slugging with runners in scoring position has been abysmal.

2) Some weird decisions from Schneider

3) Manoah

Jays bats are actually 9th in the MLB in batting average, and 8th in OBP, they've been able to get on base. Down a bit year over year but not that bad (AVG: .264 VS .256 ; OBP: .329 VS .329)

They are just probably going to be down about 10-15 HRs (200 last year - 7th vs 180 this year - 16th), which actually isn't as jarring of a drop as I thought it'd be, and the slugging is down a bit (SLG: .431 vs .416)

But the biggest difference is the slugging has really dropped off with runners in scoring position:

AVG / OBP / SLG

Last year: .258 / .339 / .433
This year: .260 / .341 / .390

Don't think it's something that requires a deep critical intervention - they just have really struggled to get multibase hits with runners in scoring position, which means they have struggled to get runs in bunches and have really had to grind to get runs this year.

Schneider has made some weird and questionable decisions at times, but honestly when you look around the MLB you see almost every team with the same complaints about their managers.

I do think there is something the org has to look at with their starting pitchers at the major league level...a bit of a history now of younger guys really struggling when given the ACE role in Toronto (Romero, Sanchez, Stroman, Hutchinson, Manoah). Opening day starter curse.
Thank you for the non-personal response. Really good points all around as well.
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Old 09-26-2023, 12:16 PM   #8479
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So ridiculous the wild card series is only a best of 3. You're playing 162 regular games, can't the league at least make the first round a best of 5???
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Old 09-26-2023, 12:33 PM   #8480
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So ridiculous the wild card series is only a best of 3. You're playing 162 regular games, can't the league at least make the first round a best of 5???
Better than 1 game. WC series of 3 games makes sense. Unless youíre saying they should drop some reg season games and allocate those days to more playoff games.
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