Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Main Forums > The Off Topic Forum > Food and Entertainment

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-13-2023, 05:12 PM   #1221
Hack&Lube
Atomic Nerd
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliver View Post
Yeah, it looks weird. Is it possible you just haven't seen a giraffe super close up very often, though? That's probably the best shot of a giraffe's face 99% of us have ever seen hah.
The Calgary Zoo's Giraffe is an endangered Rothschild's Giraffe which is a sub-species that looks slightly different than the ones everybody grew up with in their school books. That may be why it looks odd to people.
Hack&Lube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 05:21 PM   #1222
chemgear
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Exp:
Default

Remarkable climb and considering going to head to head with academy awards.

chemgear is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to chemgear For This Useful Post:
Old 03-13-2023, 05:56 PM   #1223
TrentCrimmIndependent
Franchise Player
 
TrentCrimmIndependent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Richmond upon Thames, London
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
Joel and Marlene did the same thing. Marlene by trying to kill her, Joel by murdering the doctor and then lying. Joel took away her agency by killing the doctor. That was a self serving decision that allowed him to have his daughter back.. He easily could have shot a knee cap to end the surgery. There is no ambiguity he was as wrong as Marlene.

Joel doesn’t really love Ellie he loves himself as he always did. He is unredeemed despite the shows first 8 episodes trying to convince you he had changed.
Did they?

I saw it as them convincing us that Joel could let someone in again

Not that he had changed on any fundamental level with his approach to surviving in a cruel post apocalyptic world. Especially when his way has proven to be successful at keeping him and his brother alive.

Think of the 55 year olds you know. Who actually undergoes changes on a meaningful level despite dealing with significant life events? No one.

Also how many in that age range would let their adopted child be harvested for medical means, even if positively serving, without an a-ok from the child or any kind of goodbye? No one.

At no point has Joel been shown to be a guy who isn't ultimately selfish about himself and his kin. What makes any one watching these episodes think he was going to give real consideration to the person closest to him being made a sacrificial lamb, given his background and highly cynical and jaded view of the current world?

Imo him being on the fence to allow it would be out of character

Some people just wanted to see the protagonist be better than he actually was.

I suppose you can't please every one, but this feels like an imaginary character development that was never actually demonstrated through the season.

Dude just brutally massacred multiple guys just in the last episode all just to get Ellie's whereabouts. This was thoroughly within character.

Last edited by TrentCrimmIndependent; 03-13-2023 at 06:00 PM.
TrentCrimmIndependent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 06:01 PM   #1224
nik-
Franchise Player
 
nik-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Exp:
Default

Not sure how Joel took away the agency of someone that was lied to, drugged, and then about to have her brain carved up. She didn't choose to die for humanity. She was deceived.

Afterwards? Maybe, but he killed everyone involved, so that causes a bit of a problem.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji View Post
Johnny eats garbage and isnít 100% committed.
nik- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 06:10 PM   #1225
Cole436
First Line Centre
 
Cole436's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik- View Post
Not sure how Joel took away the agency of someone that was lied to, drugged, and then about to have her brain carved up. She didn't choose to die for humanity. She was deceived.

Afterwards? Maybe, but he killed everyone involved, so that causes a bit of a problem.
They both took away Ellie's agency.

Marlene knew that Ellie would likely have said yes, but she wasn't going to take the risk that the answer was no and something goes wrong.

Joel also knew that Ellie would likely have said yes, which is why he lied. He, like Marlene, couldn't take that risk either.

At the end of the story, Ellie was robbed of her choice by the only two people she trusted.
__________________
Cole436 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Cole436 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-13-2023, 06:15 PM   #1226
TrentCrimmIndependent
Franchise Player
 
TrentCrimmIndependent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Richmond upon Thames, London
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole436 View Post
They both took away Ellie's agency.

Marlene knew that Ellie would likely have said yes, but she wasn't going to take the risk that the answer was no and something goes wrong.

Joel also knew that Ellie would likely have said yes, which is why he lied. He, like Marlene, couldn't take that risk either.

At the end of the story, Ellie was robbed of her choice by the only two people she trusted.
Adults being adults. No one was in the right. Just two people with different agendas clashing.

And she ended up with the one that was better at killing.

I'd say it checks out.

I don't think a single character introduced is inherently good or innocent (otherwise they wouldnt have survived 20 years of cordiceps). Some appear to have a tough time grappling with that.

Ellie might be the closest, since she's been justified in her actions when she did have to resort to violence.
TrentCrimmIndependent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 06:18 PM   #1227
Wormius
Franchise Player
 
Wormius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Somewhere down the crazy river.
Exp:
Default

Some of this presumes that Ellie didnít consent to be dissected. It may have been her wish, which is why she asked Joel later about whether he was telling the truth.
Wormius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 06:30 PM   #1228
CorsiHockeyLeague
Franchise Player
 
CorsiHockeyLeague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hack&Lube View Post
The Calgary Zoo's Giraffe is an endangered Rothschild's Giraffe which is a sub-species that looks slightly different than the ones everybody grew up with in their school books. That may be why it looks odd to people.
Based on the articles linked it's actually a Masai giraffe not a Rothschild. And its name is Nabo.

If you look here it looks totally real: https://www.instagram.com/p/B7MWi16hLBw/?hl=en

I'm thinking the issue was just the quality of the overlay from the blue screen, just somehow looks a bit off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormius View Post
Some of this presumes that Ellie didnít consent to be dissected. It may have been her wish, which is why she asked Joel later about whether he was telling the truth.
Nah. I think the ending is her choosing to believe Joel, even though she had a suspicion he might not be telling her the truth. So she's arguably complicit, but she's choosing to trust him.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
CorsiHockeyLeague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 07:13 PM   #1229
Inferno
Franchise Player
 
Inferno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Pas, MB
Exp:
Default

*Edit* Don't look up Abby if you haven't played the second game or already know who she is.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1635148681031868416

Last edited by Inferno; 03-13-2023 at 07:52 PM.
Inferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 07:15 PM   #1230
Cole436
First Line Centre
 
Cole436's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
I encourage anyone who has not played Part II or know the story to not Google anything about this. It will be massive spoilers for season 2.
__________________
Cole436 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cole436 For This Useful Post:
Old 03-13-2023, 07:28 PM   #1231
CorsiHockeyLeague
Franchise Player
 
CorsiHockeyLeague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

Basically there is no point in googling it, she is a voice actor for a character that appears later on in the story.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
CorsiHockeyLeague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 07:36 PM   #1232
Cole436
First Line Centre
 
Cole436's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague View Post
Basically there is no point in googling it, she is a voice actor for a character that appears later on in the story.
My point is not to google anything about Laura Bailey in relation to TLOUII or Abby. It will be massive spoilers.
__________________
Cole436 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 07:40 PM   #1233
CorsiHockeyLeague
Franchise Player
 
CorsiHockeyLeague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

I understand.
Spoiler!


I would suggest that any mention at all of anything to do with the second game is entirely off limits in this thread.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
CorsiHockeyLeague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 07:43 PM   #1234
KootenayFlamesFan
Commie Referee
 
KootenayFlamesFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Small town, B.C.
Exp:
Default

I guess I was expecting a bit more of a dynamic finale but looking back I'm not upset, it was still a great episode. And overall I loved this series. A hidden gem for me. I never played the game, never knew anything about it, just knew it was filmed in Alberta. Loved all the episodes. And on top of that my daughter knew all about it about and watched it with me every Sunday so it was a cool little bonding time for us as well. So for a show I knew nothing about just a short time ago this series was a home run.
KootenayFlamesFan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to KootenayFlamesFan For This Useful Post:
Old 03-13-2023, 07:44 PM   #1235
timun
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: May 2012
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
Joel and Marlene did the same thing. Marlene by trying to kill her, Joel by murdering the doctor and then lying. Joel took away her agency by killing the doctor.
She had no agency: she was unconscious on the table! She made a completely uninformed decision based solely on Marlene's deceit, and without Joel's intervention would have died because of the false pretenses.

Quote:
That was a self serving decision that allowed him to have his daughter back.. He easily could have shot a knee cap to end the surgery. There is no ambiguity he was as wrong as Marlene.
Yes, it was a self-serving decision insofar as he had become attached to Ellie and didn't want her to die. In order for Ellie to have any agency in any of this she should have been fully informed beforehand, to have been explicitly told: "There is the potential for a cure to be created from the Cordyceps in your brain, but in order to remove enough of a sample to work from you would die during the procedure. You would be sacrificing your life, but a potential cure could save our entire species. Do you want to go through with it or not?"

Whether he's as "wrong" as Marlene is entirely up to your interpretation, which is the whole point of the story! He could have shot the doctor in the leg, sure. In the game, you're given a choice to shoot the doctor, but if you hesitate long enough the doctor will lunge at you with the scalpel and you'll kill him defending yourself.

Quote:
Joel doesn’t really love Ellie he loves himself as he always did. He is unredeemed despite the shows first 8 episodes trying to convince you he had changed.
This whole "Joel was always a ####ty dad", "didn't grow at all" and "didn't redeem himself" conclusion is... different, anyway. I'm not really sure where you got the impression he was a ####ty, "self-interested" father to Sarah, that he had to "grow" out of this and "redeem himself" for it. You got all that from Episode 1? I interpreted Joel to just be a blue-collar working father doing the best he could in the circumstances he was in. I have no idea how you leap to the conclusion this made him a self-absorbed POS.

Did he "grow" as a person? I would say he quite clearly grew out of the misanthropic malaise he'd been in for 20 years, but he did so at the expense of a bunch of other people's lives and potentially doomed the human race in the process. Did he "redeem himself"? Well, no, probably not considering the murders and the potential dooming of the human race.

"Joel doesn't really love Ellie" is... a bafflingly bizarre conclusion to me. Or course he does. Did he selfishly chose to kill all the Fireflies and save her rather than let them kill her, despite it potentially dooming the human race? Yes. Does this make him "not really love Ellie"? Don't know how you conclude that.
timun is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to timun For This Useful Post:
Old 03-13-2023, 07:58 PM   #1236
Cole436
First Line Centre
 
Cole436's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague View Post
I understand.
Spoiler!


I would suggest that any mention at all of anything to do with the second game is entirely off limits in this thread.
Spoiler!
__________________

Last edited by Cole436; 03-13-2023 at 08:21 PM.
Cole436 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 08:05 PM   #1237
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Itís interesting that you seem to see Joel as sympathetic relative to Marlene.

You seem to think that Joel had to kill the doctor. He did not. He could have shot the doctor in the leg and stopped the surgery. I agree that Joel massacring all the fireflyís was restoring Ellieís agency right up until he shoots the doctor and between the eyes and kills Marlene.

At that point Joel did the same thing that Marlene did: take away her agency while she was unconscious. Marlene in taking away her life Joel Iím forcing her to sacrifice her dream of saving the world. Marlene is right when she says Ellie would have chose death and Joel agrees with her. The whole point of that scene is to make them both monsters.

The game clearly is much softer on Joel, Joel has to kill the doctor to defend himself and the cure might not work. Here itís much more cut an dry. Joel choses to kill the Doctor and Marlene over Ellieís unconscious objection.

As you state for Ellie to have agency she would have to be told. Joel chose not to facilitate this making him as bad as Marlene, worse actually because his motivation is selfish. I disagree that in the show this is left up to interpretation.

When you watch the first episode he essentially ignores his daughters birthday, ships her off to the neighbours, shows up late when his daughter has something special planned. Certainly not dad of the year here. If the goal was to communicate that Sarah was the most important thing to Joel it didnít work. Perhaps again thatís different in the game.

Joel is just filling the hole left by his previous failure to protect his daughter. Itís motivated out of guilt and failure. If he loved her he at a minimum doesnít lie to her.

I think you are attributing game Joel traits to TV Joel which leads to the different assessment of the mora character of Joel.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 08:10 PM   #1238
TrentCrimmIndependent
Franchise Player
 
TrentCrimmIndependent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Richmond upon Thames, London
Exp:
Default

Already watched half the cutscenes for part II

Whenever a season of something ends and I know the production for the next season is months or years out, I just indulge on the source material of future seasons to fill myself in. It's just too long to wait to find out and usually I forget half of what I saw by the time it rolls around.

Glad that part II by the sounds of it is getting split into multiple seasons. There's lots of room for them to add extra material to bridge the time gap and maybe flesh out the backgrounds of the characters to be introduced.

I think they're going to make a number of changes to help things make more sense in the show's format and perhaps spark less outrage than it sounds like the game generated.

If they stretch out two seasons into 3-4 years, it should provide the studio time to develop part 3 as well
TrentCrimmIndependent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2023, 08:11 PM   #1239
CorsiHockeyLeague
Franchise Player
 
CorsiHockeyLeague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

It's at least arguable that Joel killed the doctor for the same reason he killed Marlene. If the doctor is dead, then there's no one to perform the surgery - or at least one less person willing to perform the surgery. It's one less reason to come after Ellie. I don't know if he did that math or simply thought, "here is someone who was about to kill my girl, and is now stopping me from taking her out of here, he dies".

The notion that he lied to her and therefore must not really love her is completely insane, though.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
CorsiHockeyLeague is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to CorsiHockeyLeague For This Useful Post:
Old 03-13-2023, 08:14 PM   #1240
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent View Post
Did they?

I saw it as them convincing us that Joel could let someone in again

Not that he had changed on any fundamental level with his approach to surviving in a cruel post apocalyptic world. Especially when his way has proven to be successful at keeping him and his brother alive.

Think of the 55 year olds you know. Who actually undergoes changes on a meaningful level despite dealing with significant life events? No one.

Also how many in that age range would let their adopted child be harvested for medical means, even if positively serving, without an a-ok from the child or any kind of goodbye? No one.

At no point has Joel been shown to be a guy who isn't ultimately selfish about himself and his kin. What makes any one watching these episodes think he was going to give real consideration to the person closest to him being made a sacrificial lamb, given his background and highly cynical and jaded view of the current world?

Imo him being on the fence to allow it would be out of character

Some people just wanted to see the protagonist be better than he actually was.

I suppose you can't please every one, but this feels like an imaginary character development that was never actually demonstrated through the season.

Dude just brutally massacred multiple guys just in the last episode all just to get Ellie's whereabouts. This was thoroughly within character.
So where I see development is where he went from Ellie as cargo earning money to Ellie as person he loved as his daughter. Growth that he cared about another person than himself. He showed signs of it with the deaf kid and his brother. Then when the opportunity presents itself to show he truly cares for this other individual more than himself he shoots the doctor and lies about it to preserve his reality because he canít lose her. Itís still all about him. Iím not criticizing the show Iím criticizing Joel, he was a selfish murderer at the start and ended a selfish murderer, still broken
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:50 AM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021