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Old 10-23-2020, 11:32 AM   #3801
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Originally Posted by VilleN View Post
If Bennett truly did turn a corner these playoffs, I wouldn't be opposed to dealing Backlund and going with:
Tkachuk - Lindholm - Mangiapane
Gaudreau - Monahan - Simon
Lucic - Bennett - Dube
Nordstrom - Ryan - Robinson/Gawdin/Rinaldo

I don't want to split up Dube and Bennett, but maybe this looks better if you swap Simon and Dube. Or perhaps we could get a capable top 6 RW in a Backlund trade to slot in on the second line... Or we have a surprise at camp (Pelletier, Zary?).
I dont mind this. I think if I dealt Backlund away I would personally like to see them spend that money on Hoffman to play with Gaudreau and Monahan.
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Old 10-23-2020, 11:35 AM   #3802
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Where has it been posted that he was rumored in the deal?

It was a rumor from the morning show on fan960. From the people I talked to within the Flames organization Monahan's name was not mentioned as someone who would've been traded for Anderson .
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:11 PM   #3803
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Regardless what your opinion about moving Lindholm to center is, I think we can agree one of the biggest issues with the Flames is the top-end of their center-ice depth. The Flames have difficult matching up against really good centers on other teams, particularly in the playoffs. Something needs to change, and I think it would be worthwhile to move Lindholm to center for a long period of time to see if that improves the team's upside. We've already seen the upside of the team with Monahan - Backlund - Bennett - Ryan. Maybe let's see what the upside is with a different centre-ice depth chart? If the Flames cannot make a trade to change things up, maybe we can change things up by utilizing players differently.
The person who kicked this off disagrees with you, stating that VGK proved contenders dont need a world beating 1C. i agree, and further i think our centre depth is actually superior to vgk.

we cant acquire a better centre than monahan through trade, and Lindholm has done nothing at all to prove that he could be better in the role. trading monahan immediately makes the team worse. its a dumb idead.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:22 PM   #3804
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
Of course you trade one of them for an upgrade, but the upgrade doesn't necessarily have to be at center for this to work, due to the fact that we have options internally to replace either one.

And if either Bennett or Dube can establish themselves as middle six centres, you can move a center for a true RW.
I don't think this is the case at all.

If Bennett or Dube establish themselves as 40-50 pt centres (middle 6) it may allow us to consider dealing Backlund. But that will likely be at the expense of some solid defensive/shutdown play unless Dube or Bennett also develop that element of their game.

We can't deal Monahan unless Bennett or Dube pose a legit threat of posting 30 goals and can sniff PPG potential. #### on Monahan all you want but that is what he brings to this team. We don't have another centre capable of that. Backlund is a wonderful centre but in his best season topped out at 53 points.
That isnt good enough offensively.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:29 PM   #3805
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
Of course you trade one of them for an upgrade, but the upgrade doesn't necessarily have to be at center for this to work, due to the fact that we have options internally to replace either one.

And if either Bennett or Dube can establish themselves as middle six centres, you can move a center for a true RW.
I am arguing that we do not have internal options to replace either of our two best centers. I do understand that it is arguable, and I also understand that IF some of our young players take a significant step there is a possibility that Monahan or Backlund becomes expendable, but as of now this is not the case.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:35 PM   #3806
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Originally Posted by Monahammer View Post
The person who kicked this off disagrees with you, stating that VGK proved contenders dont need a world beating 1C. i agree, and further i think our centre depth is actually superior to vgk.

we cant acquire a better centre than monahan through trade, and Lindholm has done nothing at all to prove that he could be better in the role. trading monahan immediately makes the team worse. its a dumb idead.
Iím not sure who kicked this off, and I guess itís fair to use the VGK as an example to prove that you donít need a world beating #1C to win. But I would counter-argue that all the recent champions have had better #1Cs than Monahan: Crosby, Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, Backstrom, OíReilly and Point. These centres are not all better natural goal scorers than Monahan. Monahan is an elite goal scorer. But I would argue all those centres are better all around players.

Iím not advocating a Monahan trade. Iím arguing the team should move Monahan to the wing and Lindholm to centre. My blue sky lines would be:

Gaudreau - Backlund - Tkachuk
Mangiapane - Lindholm - Monahan (Monahan on RW for one-timers)
Simon - Bennett - Dube
Lucic - Ryan - Nordstrom/Gawdin

I believe this gives all lines at least two fast skaters and at least two players that will go into the corners to dig pucks out or stand in front of the net.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:52 PM   #3807
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from the Treliving article last week:



They have since signed Nordstrom and Simon. Should expect a depth d-man who can play the right side soon.
Francis on 960 said he has heard that the Flames are close to signing a depth d-man.

He wouldn't reveal the name, but said it isn't a big name and someone that bring competition to the blueline and could be sent to the AHL .
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:53 PM   #3808
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Originally Posted by Monahammer View Post
The person who kicked this off disagrees with you, stating that VGK proved contenders dont need a world beating 1C. i agree, and further i think our centre depth is actually superior to vgk.

we cant acquire a better centre than monahan through trade, and Lindholm has done nothing at all to prove that he could be better in the role. trading monahan immediately makes the team worse. its a dumb idead.
I don’t think it’s a dumb idea at all. Monahan has been this team’s #1 center for the better part of 6 years now and what we’ve seen is the same song and dance year after year. Bubble playoff team or first round fodder. Ask yourself honestly, what changes if this team goes into next season with basically the same team? It’ll probably be the exact same result, which would essentially be the definition of insanity.

I get you’re a fan of Monahan. But lets call a spade a spade here, what makes Monahan special is his ability to score goals, especially in tight. But his goal scoring dries up when it matters most and his overall game also tapers off during tight checking hockey. Sure, he’s outstanding playing run & gun with Gaudreau, but that’s not a style you ever see in the playoffs.

For the record, I don’t think Lindholm is a #1 center either. But nobody just gives away top #1 centers. You basically have to draft them; so the Flames are stuck with what they have. I know Lindholm has way less experience at center, but the things that Monahan does well, I think Lindholm does just as well plus extras. He lead the team in goals by a wide margin this season and would’ve hit 30 if the season wasn’t stopped. So you can’t say he doesn’t score enough.

The intangibles though is what separates him from Monahan. He plays in all situations, is hard on pucks, not afraid to get in the dirty areas, very sound defensively, always in the right position and he’s fast enough to get on the forecheck and back check.

Lastly, with Geoff Ward coming back, I don’t think the style he deploys is well suited for Monahan as it requires a lot of pace and Monahan’s skating is not a strength. He doesn’t get in on the forecheck fast enough and then he’s caught up way too high to do anything on the back check which just leads to a wide open neutral zone which means not enough back pressure and/or odd man rushes against. So in my opinion, on thisnteam right now, Lindholm > Monahan.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:53 PM   #3809
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I don't think this is the case at all.

If Bennett or Dube establish themselves as 40-50 pt centres (middle 6) it may allow us to consider dealing Backlund. But that will likely be at the expense of some solid defensive/shutdown play unless Dube or Bennett also develop that element of their game.

We can't deal Monahan unless Bennett or Dube pose a legit threat of posting 30 goals and can sniff PPG potential. #### on Monahan all you want but that is what he brings to this team. We don't have another centre capable of that. Backlund is a wonderful centre but in his best season topped out at 53 points.
That isnt good enough offensively.
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I am arguing that we do not have internal options to replace either of our two best centers. I do understand that it is arguable, and I also understand that IF some of our young players take a significant step there is a possibility that Monahan or Backlund becomes expendable, but as of now this is not the case.
Lindholm could comfortably replace Backlund in both defence and offence, and arguably replace Monahan in offence (and easily in defence).

The concern is how you replace Lindholm as the top line RW, not how you replace Monahan or Backlund in the top six.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:56 PM   #3810
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Lindholm could comfortably replace Backlund in both defence and offence, and arguably replace Monahan in offence (and easily in defence).

The concern is how you replace Lindholm as the top line RW, not how you replace Monahan or Backlund in the top six.
Iíd have to see way more of Lindholm at centre before Iím saying he takes anyoneís place. Iím also not as concerned about any RW gap going forward. As much as a RHS is missing, good Cís are more valuable.
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:11 PM   #3811
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Lindholm has looked pretty average when played at center. Lindholm is far better on the wing than he is at center.

I do think that Gaudreau and Monahan need to be split up next season. Their games have become to reliant on each other and it's making them predictable.

IMO the best center for Gaudreau in terms of play style is Playoff Sam Bennett. Part of the problem with the 1st line currently is that their isn't anyone on that line that can push the defense back with speed or retrieve dump ins. Sam Bennett can do both. If he just keeps his game simple and doesn't try to be a finesse player, he can create room for Gaudreau. If he uses his speed and drives the center lane and goes hard to the net he will push the defense back giving more room for Gaudreau.

Now I fully acknowledge that, there is a good possibility that it doesn't work, but I think there is a chance that it brings out the best in both players. It's more about matching play styles. It does hinge on Bennett not altering his game, and not trying to play a finesse skill game, no more toe drags at the blueline.

Gaudreau-Bennett-Tkachuk
Mangiapane-Monahan-Lindholm
Lucic-Backlund-Dube
Nordstrom-Ryan-Simon
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:15 PM   #3812
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I dont mind this. I think if I dealt Backlund away I would personally like to see them spend that money on Hoffman to play with Gaudreau and Monahan.
Iím not sure about this. If Backlund is out, and Hoffman is in we probably arenít a better hockey team. I am no expert on Hoffman, but from some of the takes on this forum his 200 foot game is lacking. Hoffman playing with Johnny and Monahan could be a real disaster when they donít have the puck.

I guess we would be acquiring assets for Backlund, but I am a till not a fan.
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:16 PM   #3813
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We can't deal Monahan unless Bennett or Dube pose a legit threat of posting 30 goals and can sniff PPG potential.
There's a real chicken-and-egg element at play here, though.

How many 30 goal scorers or PPG players do not play on their team's top powerplay?

Heck look at how productive Lindholm was in Carolina. That's hardly Monahan levels of productiveness. Why? Because he did not play on his team's top powerplay.

Or if you want to talk about the best player in the NHL... even he needed his team to trade Matt Duchene away before he really took off.

So what we're stuck at is this:

We can't deal Monahan until someone else shows he can do what Monahan can do.

No one else can show he can do what Monahan can do, unless we... deal Monahan.

It's such a catch-22.

Am I advocating that we move Monahan for no reason? No.

Am I saying those other two players are locks to replace Monahan's production? No.

But I am saying that this team is stuck in this catch-22 because Monahan is productive. The problem is that Monahan is "only" productive. Ideally you want centres who are more than just productive.

Personally, there's a big part of me that thinks a true rebuild is the only way out of that catch-22. If Dube or Bennett or Zary or whoever else explodes in the absence of Monahan, great (look no further than Backlund who didn't become productive until the team decided to rebuild) if not, you find that championship calibre number one centre through the draft.

I hate the treadmill.
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:16 PM   #3814
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Francis on 960 said he has heard that the Flames are close to signing a depth d-man.

He wouldn't reveal the name, but said it isn't a big name and someone that bring competition to the blueline and could be sent to the AHL .
This appears to be Nikita Nesterov.

https://www.sports.ru/hockey/1090259...rplatoj-p.html
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:34 PM   #3815
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Mangiapane-Monahan-Tkachuk
Gaudreau-Bennett-Lindholm
Lucic-Backlund-Dubť

I'd also consider swapping Dubť and Mangiapane (especially if Tkachuk would prefer the left side)
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Old 10-23-2020, 03:32 PM   #3816
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
Lindholm could comfortably replace Backlund in both defence and offence, and arguably replace Monahan in offence (and easily in defence).

The concern is how you replace Lindholm as the top line RW, not how you replace Monahan or Backlund in the top six.
Dude, you are a good poster here and obviously a smart guy, but you are not acknowledging my point.

I disagree that Monahan and Backlund can be replaced with players on our roster. You are stating it as a fact. Its fine that you believe that, but I believe you are wrong.
Where do Monahan's goals come from?
Who takes Backlund's match-ups?

Please don't say Bennet or Dube or Ryan or Lindholm or (snicker) Zary.

Yes, trading either of those players will involve a return, but will it be an upgrade? I just don't see how.

Of all the discussion points that can be had, this one seems almost moot as good NHL centers (Monahan and Backlund are) are rare. The Flames need more of them not less.

Sorry, I just don't get it.
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Old 10-23-2020, 04:35 PM   #3817
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Dude, you are a good poster here and obviously a smart guy, but you are not acknowledging my point.

I disagree that Monahan and Backlund can be replaced with players on our roster. You are stating it as a fact. Its fine that you believe that, but I believe you are wrong.
Where do Monahan's goals come from?
Who takes Backlund's match-ups?

Please don't say Bennet or Dube or Ryan or Lindholm or (snicker) Zary.

Yes, trading either of those players will involve a return, but will it be an upgrade? I just don't see how.

Of all the discussion points that can be had, this one seems almost moot as good NHL centers (Monahan and Backlund are) are rare. The Flames need more of them not less.

Sorry, I just don't get it.
No, I get what you're saying. I do believe Lindholm could probably replace either one, but could definitely replace Backlund. Lindholm is good in the circle, is the #1 option on the PK (which to me says he's capable of taking hard matchups at center 5v5), and we've seen what he can do offensively. He's no slouch.

I don't mean to state it as a fact, it's just my opinion. I totally respect if you disagree.

Bennett/Dube to me are guys you hope step into the 3C role, and push Ryan down and eventually out (only because of salary). I'm not pencilling a guy like Zary into the top 9 soon.
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Old 10-23-2020, 04:39 PM   #3818
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Mangiapane-Monahan-Tkachuk
Gaudreau-Bennett-Lindholm
Lucic-Backlund-Dubť

I'd also consider swapping Dubť and Mangiapane (especially if Tkachuk would prefer the left side)
I wonder if BT is betting on Dube, Mangi and Bennett. I think its a good bet and shoring up the goaltender and defense is/was key. Jusso coming in is also a potential huge difference maker
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Old 10-23-2020, 04:46 PM   #3819
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Iíd have to see way more of Lindholm at centre before Iím saying he takes anyoneís place. Iím also not as concerned about any RW gap going forward. As much as a RHS is missing, good Cís are more valuable.
I'm trying to remember how last season went, it's been so long now, but from what I remember, they tried Lindholm at centre with Tkachuk and from what I recalled, they were the best line. The problem was that they were the ONLY line that was going.

Again, from what I recall, the only reason they put Lindholm back with Gaudreau and Monahan was because those two could not get going and also needed a defensively responsible forward with them. I'm pretty sure they tried playing Backlund on Gaudreau and Monahan's wing to replace Lindholm and it wasn't working.

So from what I remember, it wasn't that Lindholm couldn't cut it at centre, it was more of Gaudreau and Monahan couldn't go without Lindholm and also that Backlund was better at centre than the wing.

If you have the video and evidence to correct me, let me know, but that's how I remembered it.

I do think that Ward thinks of Lindholm as a centremen. He has compared Lindholm to Bergeron on numerous occasions.
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Old 10-23-2020, 05:33 PM   #3820
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I'm trying to remember how last season went, it's been so long now, but from what I remember, they tried Lindholm at centre with Tkachuk and from what I recalled, they were the best line. The problem was that they were the ONLY line that was going.

Again, from what I recall, the only reason they put Lindholm back with Gaudreau and Monahan was because those two could not get going and also needed a defensively responsible forward with them. I'm pretty sure they tried playing Backlund on Gaudreau and Monahan's wing to replace Lindholm and it wasn't working.

So from what I remember, it wasn't that Lindholm couldn't cut it at centre, it was more of Gaudreau and Monahan couldn't go without Lindholm and also that Backlund was better at centre than the wing.

If you have the video and evidence to correct me, let me know, but that's how I remembered it.

I do think that Ward thinks of Lindholm as a centremen. He has compared Lindholm to Bergeron on numerous occasions.

Yup, this is pretty much how I remember last season. Backlund actually went up to Geoff Ward and asked to move back to center where heís comfortable. He, Tkachuk and Mangiapane went on a tear after the move as well. Not surprising, as Tkachuk and Backlund have unparalleled chemistry together. Mangiapane > Frolik - so that line is like the 3M line on steroids.

Gaudreau and Monahan just did not look comfortable together for 80% of the season. Outside of stretch in January and February, they looked like they had never played together before; the playoffs were probably their worst showing as they were owned at even strength.

Lindholm kind of reminds me a bit of Jonathan Toews. Maybe not as competitive, maybe not as brash. But he plays in all situations, excels in most areas of the ice. Heís smart, can score goals and is hard on the pursuit for the puck. Similar to Toews in that heís not an elite play driver like a Patrick Kane, but Lindholmís contract is so good that you can find great wingers to compliment him while Lindholm can do all the little things.


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