[Trade] Toffoli to Flames for 2022 1st *, 2023 5th, Heineman, and Pitlick

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Zary is a concussion risk. Has been for years. If he wants to stay at center he either needs to improve his awareness or move to wing. Outside of that, I'm not here to bash Zary, that's not my goal.

2020 counts, all the same. We don't need to bash prospects to count it, we know where Schneider is right now.

Well done on moving the goalposts AGAIN!
I’m not aware of any Zary concussion issues prior to being drafted. None.
We should call you Nadia Comaneci with those mental gymnastics!

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Plus in one of those years they had 3 first rounders. Wasted them on Poirier and Klimchuk but still had them.

Their failings were:

2012: moving down to get Janko instead of one of Teravainen, Vasilevksy, Hertl

2013: Missing on Burakovsky/Theodore

That's about it.

I know we're going to the previous regime, but the 7 picks after Sven were:

Oleksiak
JT Miller
Armia
Beaulieu
bust
Klefbom
Connor Murphy

Of course then we may or may not end up with Andersson.


And still too early to say, but the Valimaki pick may not age well with Norris and Robert Thomas (amongst others) going shortly after.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Such nuance. So brave.

CGY was lacking in RHD prospects, but even more so C prospects. IIRC it seems apparent the Flames were drafting a C, and likely had a few on the board who they liked (hence the trade down).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Makes tonnes of sense when D takes several more years to develop to go after the center first.

Calgary lacks elite D, elite C. Schneider may have been that for D. Seems so ATM. Zary was never that.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I know we're going to the previous regime, but the 7 picks after Sven were:

Oleksiak
JT Miller
Armia
Beaulieu
bust
Klefbom
Connor Murphy

Of course then we may or may not end up with Andersson.


And still too early to say, but the Valimaki pick may not age well with Norris and Robert Thomas (amongst others) going shortly after.

I thought about 2017 but I thought it was maybe too soon.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Makes tonnes of sense when D takes several more years to develop to go after the center first.



Calgary lacks elite D, elite C. Schneider may have been that for D. Seems so ATM. Zary was never that.

Schneider was one of the oldest players in the draft. It makes sense that he would be a little ahead of his peers this early, but these things have a tendency to level out over time, which is why patience is the best approach to assessing players in their first couple years of professional hockey.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

“Known blue chip RHD”.

https://thehockeynews.com/news/final...hese-go-to-120

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article...final-edition/

https://www.habseyesontheprize.com/n...ckey-prospects

https://www.ontheforecheck.com/2020/...ation-scouting

https://dobberprospects.com/2020/06/...ngs-june-2020/

https://www.silversevensens.com/2020...p-62-prospects

https://www.espn.com/nhl/insider/sto...ition-rankings

Sure the draft was weird that year and a lot of disagreement. So....if you don't like Braden, upgrade. Don't downgrade. If an elite center was needed so bad, or jist hate for Schneider, move up and get one. It was cheap to do that year.

Downgrading is silly unless the Flames really really thought Zary was a sleeper.

In which case, that's weird.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Sure the draft was weird that year and a lot of disagreement. So....if you don't like Braden, upgrade. Don't downgrade. If an elite center was needed so bad, or jist hate for Schneider, move up and get one. It was cheap to do that year.



Downgrading is silly unless the Flames really really thought Zary was a sleeper.



In which case, that's weird.

Why is that weird? Zary was pretty consistently ranked in the top-20, which can not be said for Schneider.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[GioforPM]

Schneider has 43 games. Seems to me to be a bit soon to be declaring him an elite D. He strikes me as a high floor, low ceiling type, and those guys get into the NHL sooner.

And the games played are always skewed soon after the draft. Sanderson has played zero games. Drysdale (round 6) has played 105.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Sure the draft was weird that year and a lot of disagreement. So....if you don't like Braden, upgrade. Don't downgrade. If an elite center was needed so bad, or jist hate for Schneider, move up and get one. It was cheap to do that year.

Downgrading is silly unless the Flames really really thought Zary was a sleeper.

In which case, that's weird.

The Flames wanted Zary at where they picked him. He was going to be available later so they obtained more picks and still got him. No brainer. They would have lost picks to move up and who’s to say anyone wanted that deal anyway?

You said Schneider over Zary was some sort of easy pick and Schneider was a consensus blue chipper. Just plain incorrect.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Sure the draft was weird that year and a lot of disagreement. So....if you don't like Braden, upgrade. Don't downgrade. If an elite center was needed so bad, or jist hate for Schneider, move up and get one. It was cheap to do that year.

Downgrading is silly unless the Flames really really thought Zary was a sleeper.

In which case, that's weird.

Was it? Did I somehow miss this? What was the ask on Byfield or Stutzle? Flames 19OA and Kylington or something? What constitutes elite C to you?

As far as I can recall, Treliving, along with NY and Washington, we’re the only team to move picks. Maybe I’m wrong but if I’m not, I’m not too sure how you have plinko chipped your brain into saying otherwise.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Sure the draft was weird that year and a lot of disagreement. So....if you don't like Braden, upgrade. Don't downgrade. If an elite center was needed so bad, or jist hate for Schneider, move up and get one. It was cheap to do that year.

Downgrading is silly unless the Flames really really thought Zary was a sleeper.

In which case, that's weird.

Show your work. Who would you have traded up for and what would it have cost?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The Flames wanted Zary at where they picked him. He was going to be available later so they obtained more picks and still got him. No brainer. They would have lost picks to move up and who’s to say anyone wanted that deal anyway?

You said Schneider over Zary was some sort of easy pick and Schneider was a consensus blue chipper. Just plain incorrect.

i'm not going to go through 30 scouting reports to answer this but it was entirely correct and many many top scouts were very high on him. end of story. By the way, they were right, from the information we have now.
https://www.nhl.com/devils/news/draf...gs/c-317229424

Now if Flames scouts aren't high on him, fine. whatever. But to just target Zary, means you don't see anything worthwhile inbetween 19 and Zary. And nothing above 19 worth buying. That's not going to play out well. The whole point of the first round is to pick the most valuable prospect in the draft possible and the Flames are forfeiting that, and/or disagreeing with it....

That's a dangerous Jankowski game.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Show your work. Who would you have traded up for and what would it have cost?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You wouldn't like my answer.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

You wouldn't like my answer.

Why stop now? You have already compiled pages and pages of opinion here that no one agrees with.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[CalgaryFan1988]

Never mind with who he would have picked, that's easy with hindsight. who would you take with the pick that was traded for Toffoli? I don't want to hear in 3 seasons another captain hindsight woulda coulda shoulda.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

i'm not going to go through 30 scouting reports to answer this but it was entirely correct and many many top scouts were very high on him. end of story. By the way, they were right, from the information we have now.
https://www.nhl.com/devils/news/draf...gs/c-317229424

Now if Flames scouts aren't high on him, fine. whatever. But to just target Zary, means you don't see anything worthwhile inbetween 19 and Zary. And nothing above 19 worth buying. That's not going to play out well. The whole point of the first round is to pick the most valuable prospect in the draft possible and the Flames are forfeiting that, and/or disagreeing with it....

That's a dangerous Jankowski game.

More scouts were high on Zary than Schneider. At least, they ranked him higher.

But it doesn’t even matter. Zary was who the Flames wanted, traded pick or not. That’s the point, not who they picked.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Why stop now? You have already compiled pages and pages of opinion here that no one agrees with.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

I mean if there's multiple people asking for my opinion, I'll give it.

But at some point y'all gotta ask yourselves some questions lol.


Trades are not something that can just be nailed down at a certain price. I'd have multiple targets with multiple teams and obviously you go with the fit that you get.

At the time I had three strategies, I'll say them honestly. 2/3 look good now. I can live with that.

1. Go for Drysdale-type pick. There were a few options up there. If you gun for Drysdale and get Quinn, not so bad.

2. Go for 2021 picks. Deal with teams like Detroit, New Jersey, to move our pick to 2021. The idea here being that outside of Drysdale, 2021 had some fantastic D in the top 10.

3. (this is the only one that wouldn't look good now): Go for Askarov. (if getting Drysdale was too hard). I was high on him. He's far from dead but I'm less high on him now.


Price?

Anyone.

I would have traded Gaudreau for multiple first rounders, given his contract situation, or Tkachuk. Or really almost anyone on the team now, except our younger D or younger goalies. we'll be needing them. But I'd be starting with the guys who have impossible contracts and tend to not perform in the playoffs.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

The whole point of the first round is to pick the most valuable prospect in the draft possible and the Flames are forfeiting that, and/or disagreeing with it....

And not every team has the same opinion on who that is. Not picking the player they should have picked is a problem every team faces at some point. Some more than others.

It's obvious that the Flames felt that whoever they most likely could have picked where they projected they would be was worth packaging for 2.5 years of Toffoli who they already know is an NHL player. Whether that pans out is still to be determined.

[GioforPM]

“Go for” isn’t a proposal. You have to say who you would trade with and what they’d accept got give up their pick.

And you haven’t said who you’d pick with 2022 26OA.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

“Go for” isn’t a proposal. You have to say who you would trade with and what they’d accept got give up their pick.

And you haven’t said who you’d pick with 2022 26OA.

Early on he said that he was very high on Mattias Hävelid. Undoubtedly another franchise defenseman in the making.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk