2022 Toronto Blue Jays Off-season Thread

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I can't remember... did the teams of these other HOFers also 'sell high' when these players were 23?

Closest was Marlins trading Cabrera when he was 24:

On December 5, 2007, the Marlins traded Cabrera and starting pitcher Dontrelle Willis to the Detroit Tigers for pitchers Andrew Miller, Dallas Trahern, Eulogio De La Cruz and Burke Badenhop, outfielder Cameron Maybin, and catcher Mike Rabelo.

That seemed to work out well for the Marlins

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah, other than one season Vlad has been rather underwhelming and his launch angle issues are a major concern at this point. As is his pitch selection.

Not saying he can't get it figured out, but if he doesn't I'd expect a lot more 2-3 fWAR seasons in his future and not very many 6+ fWAR seasons.

3 fWAR isn't underwhelming for a 23 year old though. It's not MVP phenom level, but it's still really good for a 23 year old.

In no way is being the 7th youngest player to 100 HRs, and 100 Doubles underwhelming. Even if he's not the perennial MVP candidate people hoped he would be yet.

Not his fault the fan base put these crazy expectations on him.

Actually not that dissimilar to Aaron Judge after his rookie season (in which he was 25 already), and look what he did this last season.

Or Bryce Harper who won his MVP at 22 (if not for Ohtani Vlad is likely MVP last year at 22), and then Nationals fans kind of were dissapointed with him for the next couple years, then he won another MVP in Philly at 28.

Not easily to be a consistent MVP candidate when you are 23/24 years old, unless you are Mike Trout. His 4.0 WAR was still top 75 in the league this year.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I can't remember... did the teams of these other HOFers also 'sell high' when these players were 23?

Arod played so early he was a free agent at 24.

Most recent example would be trading away Juan Soto? He is probably just behind Vladdy on that list, 23 years 200ish days.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by Kasi

I love the narrative of completely pointless stats to make a player look better. So if we put this age and these numbers then we find these players. Kinda pointless to me at least. Sure Vlad has a nice number of home runs at a young age but at the same time he’s had one great season out of 4. It’s not like he’s Trout or Ohtani or Soto or something. Fact is these days many young players come out and are great from the start. We’ll see next year if he’s able to get back to hitting the ball in the air again.

100 home runs and 100 doubles are meaningless? OK.

Who is saying he is Mike Trout? Or Ohtani? Strawman?

Is it a fact that many young players come out and are great from the start? Like who? Witt was OK this season at 22, defense was suspect, Kelenic looks overmatched, Joey Bart can't hit, Alec Bohm looks average to below average, Nick Madrigal isn't great, Jo Adell is a bust and on and on.

[Kasi]

Someone here said he was generational. That label carries a certain amount of weight. He’s nowhere even close to that. True many players are busts right out of the gate. But those players aren’t “generational”. He’s a good player that’s it. He has depending on metrics like a 10-13 WAR player over 4 seasons. Bo is by about any metric a superior player to Vlad. He’s put up more fWAR and a little less bWAR in over a hundred less games and no one is calling him generational either. What Vlad is is a good player who had one standout season out of four that was mostly fueled by playing in minor league parks. (Something like a 1.200 OPS in those parks)

No one is saying trade him or that he’s a bust. But I think the hype train got going a bit too fast here. But I think peoples evaluation of him changes if he’s a 1.000 OPS guy or .800. You can’t call a guy that if there is like 30 players I’d rather have in baseball on my team than him. (With the same contract they currently have)

[bluejays]

I think you're points are as valid as any Kasi. I'd say he's on a good path, with this year easily chalking it up to be an anomaly. Given his talent and what he's done to this point, it would take a huge return to bother dealing him as he does have the talent to be a franchise player for years to come. Generational talent? Who knows -- that DOES get used frequently but if you look at the ROY every year and what that person turned out to be, it shows you baseball can be finicky where a lot of guys show brilliance, then fall of the map. In baseball one injury can derail your career quickly as well. A lot of stars have to align, with hard work in the mix as well.

I don't think anyone should give up on him - he's got a lot to be positive over. Having said that, those one off stats in any sport are annoying, I'll say that much. But he does have a certain amount of talent where it's worth pursuing. Outwardly putting the guy on the market I don't think is a good idea though, as well as signing to a long term deal. The guy has shown enough talent to keep the intrigue up, so much so the only concern I have is his size as he does have a bigger body type that can break down if not well maintained.

[Kasi]

I’m very curious who ends up with better career between him and Bo since I think they’re only going to extend one long term. (Since I hope they do extend Manoah) I just hope the Jays choose right. Maybe they can negotiate something more favorable after this season.

[bluejays]

This off-season they do have leverage unless either guy wants to bet on themselves. Regardless, I hope the Jays move Bo to 2nd, and see if Espinal can play SS. Prior to the Jays signing Chapman, I thought he was one of the most underrated players in the league. Now I'm not convinced he's championship quality with his bat. I'm not sure his defence is worth keeping around either, considering Espinal may play less defence but not that much worse, but will probably be better with the bat. That's still a risk though as Espinal is unproven with a high potential, and this upcoming season may be a do or die for Atkins. They did build their platform on creating a sustainable team so they can't do what AA did and deal many of their prospects for a win now. Good thing for him is there are a ton of pieces to deal if they want to. Back to the signings though, I hope they don't exceed 6 year deals for either Bo or Vlad, as those pose too many risks for anyone. 5 years would be ideal.

[Inferno]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1581423636665499649

[ben voyonsdonc]

I’d be stunned if they didn’t end up taking the interim tag off of Schneider.

He did his job well.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

I’d be stunned if they didn’t end up taking the interim tag off of Schneider.

He did his job well.

I think he did fine. I'd be curious what he were to do if he had a full season, so to some degree I'm sure they wouldn't see it as fair to get rid of him now. Having said that, I'm sure they're going to give it a few weeks to see if any other names would drive the Jays over the top, before the inevitably give him the reins again, but I don't think it's a lock. If the same scenario plays out this time next year, Atkins is a goner. He's probably going to do a little bit more of a search before giving it to Schneider, just because there is a lot riding on this upcoming year.

[browna]

Originally Posted by bluejays

I think he did fine. I'd be curious what he were to do if he had a full season, so to some degree I'm sure they wouldn't see it as fair to get rid of him now. Having said that, I'm sure they're going to give it a few weeks to see if any other names would drive the Jays over the top, before the inevitably give him the reins again, but I don't think it's a lock. If the same scenario plays out this time next year, Atkins is a goner. He's probably going to do a little bit more of a search before giving it to Schneider, just because there is a lot riding on this upcoming year.

Not exactly the same but also not dissimilar; Padres went old school with Bob Melvin (who has won manager of the year 3 times) after a few “young and cool” managerial choices since Bud Black, and it’s gotten that talent to a LCS.

As I mentioned earlier, Schneider has been great and saved the season from the nosedive that Charlie put it in and couldn’t recover from…but if this team is going to take it to the next level, they need to have the roster look to a top manager with proven experience and ideally playoff success…and that isn’t Schneider or a Phillies hitting coach.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by browna

Not exactly the same but also not dissimilar; Padres went old school with Bob Melvin (who has won manager of the year 3 times) after a few “young and cool” managerial choices since Bud Black, and it’s gotten that talent to a LCS.

As I mentioned earlier, Schneider has been great and saved the season from the nosedive that Charlie put it in and couldn’t recover from…but if this team is going to take it to the next level, they need to have the roster look to a top manager with proven experience and ideally playoff success…and that isn’t Schneider or a Phillies hitting coach.

I tend to agree to a large extent. Right now I’m sure their confidence is shot, and an old guy who’s been there can bring some hard love as well as speak from experience. I’d personally like to see that as well. But truly, it would be pretty crappy of them to promote Schneider where he was presumably comfortable in the minors, and only give him 120 games to prove himself, and ultimately lose both jobs. It’s a tough biz and all but he’d definitely be getting the short stick there.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Kasi

I’m very curious who ends up with better career between him and Bo since I think they’re only going to extend one long term. (Since I hope they do extend Manoah) I just hope the Jays choose right. Maybe they can negotiate something more favorable after this season.

I'd be surprised if they don't extend both.

Rogers has been willing to spend money - Bo and Vlad both sell a ton of merch, I'd be surprised if they don't try to keep both.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I'd be surprised if they don't extend both.

Rogers has been willing to spend money - Bo and Vlad both sell a ton of merch, I'd be surprised if they don't try to keep both.

I think it’s in the cards that they sign both but it’s a question of when. Both have had very mediocre years and certainly it’s the year to extend them. How’ve, with Bichette I think there are questions around his defence and if he’s be willing to move to 2nd. If he’s not, I think they should deal him. His throws have been atrocious at times and I don’t think you can have him as your everyday SS and expect him to come through in pressure situations. I’d rather have Espinal try as he does seem to be much more mobile. Or bring in a SS and move Espinal to 3rd while dealing Chapman. Interesting off-season possibilities galore.

[Kasi]

Bichette saved his mediocre year by an amazing September. Vlad despite his bad September still had a fine year. Both had solid years, Bo a bit better but still fine. Just not superstar material. You have to weigh the math here if there is upside in their game or is this what they are.

[Sylvanfan]

The thing with Vlad is that he doesn't play a premium position, so it will be interesting to see what he gets versus some other guys in his age range who signed mega deals like Soto and Julio Rodriguez this year.

For Bichette...they really need to figure out where he's going to play. His bat is good enough to play anywhere, but his D at short doesn't look to cut it. But where are you going to play him? Do you put him at 2nd where he's still likely a below average defender but the plus bat is a bonus?

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Or bring in a SS and move Espinal to 3rd while dealing Chapman. Interesting off-season possibilities galore.

Español was about their only starter with a sub 100 OPS+...If you can't use him at a premium defensive position...than he's a bench or platoon guy to me.

[Roof-Daddy]

I'm pretty sure they have figured where Bo will play. He's going to continue as the shortstop I'd imagine. I'd love an upgrade myself (Correa and Boegarts are free agents) but I don't see it happening.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Español was about their only starter with a sub 100 OPS+...If you can't use him at a premium defensive position...than he's a bench or platoon guy to me.

With Merrifield here for another season I would think Espinal will most certainly be a bench guy for 2023.

1B Vlad
2B Merrifield
3B Chapman
SS Bo

[Kasi]

It’s interesting to compare Bo to someone like Jeter. Jeter had crap range but he was very sure handed in what he got to. So that’s why everyone casual thought he was an amazing defender. Bo I think has much better range but he forces throws. I think he did make gains on his D this year but he needs to get his throwing under control.