Brad Treliving needs to go

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

We will see how they get it done but it won’t be moving Stone, Pacioretty, Stephenson, Piterangelo, Theodore, Martinez etc.


The worst case they have to give Reilly Smith away for cheap. Dadanov, Janmark are likely movable.

They will figure it out

Reilly Smith has 30 points already, its not like he is nothing

the point is they aren't just adding Eichel...and Eichel also hasn't played in over a year and had neck surgery. Remains to be seen what he is immediately after he returns.

[Mathgod]

I think Tre has done a fine job over these past 3/4 years, with the notable exception of not replacing Ward with Sutter immediately following the series loss to the Stars.

If the top six was:

Johnny-Lindy-Chucky
Coleman-Bennett-Mangi

This team would be right up there with Colorado as a dominant power in the west. Oh, what could have been...

Anyhow, the prospect pool looks reasonably good. Pelletier, Wolf, Mackey all appear to have promising futures. Too early to know how each young player in Stockton will pan out, but time will tell.

Cap situation this summer will be a challenge without a doubt, but I don't have reason to believe Tre doesn't have a plan for each scenario based on who gets signed and who (potentially) doesn't.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I think Tre has done a fine job over these past 3/4 years, with the notable exception of not replacing Ward with Sutter immediately following the series loss to the Stars.

If the top six was:

Johnny-Lindy-Chucky
Coleman-Bennett-Mangi

This team would be right up there with Colorado as a dominant power in the west. Oh, what could have been...

Anyhow, the prospect pool looks reasonably good. Pelletier, Wolf, Mackey all appear to have promising futures. Too early to know how each young player in Stockton will pan out, but time will tell.

Cap situation this summer will be a challenge without a doubt, but I don't have reason to believe Tre doesn't have a plan for each scenario based on who gets signed and who (potentially) doesn't.

I loved Bennett, still hurts that we traded him, but replacing Backlund with Bennett hardly makes us a powerhouse and to be up there with Colorado? Yeah.......no

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I think Tre has done a fine job over these past 3/4 years, with the notable exception of not replacing Ward with Sutter immediately following the series loss to the Stars.

If the top six was:

Johnny-Lindy-Chucky
Coleman-Bennett-Mangi

This team would be right up there with Colorado as a dominant power in the west. Oh, what could have been...

Anyhow, the prospect pool looks reasonably good. Pelletier, Wolf, Mackey all appear to have promising futures. Too early to know how each young player in Stockton will pan out, but time will tell.

Cap situation this summer will be a challenge without a doubt, but I don't have reason to believe Tre doesn't have a plan for each scenario based on who gets signed and who (potentially) doesn't.

Curious to know why you think Treliving didn’t want to hire Sutter right after the bubble? Why did it take the Flames 3-4 weeks after the bubble to announce Ward was the coach? How do we know Sutter just wasn’t ready to come back at that time, leaving the Flames to go with plan B?

Again, it has been acknowledged by Treliving and Sutter that the Flames approached Sutter after Peters left. To me, that would suggest he was their primary target all along.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

I loved Bennett, still hurts that we traded him, but replacing Backlund with Bennett hardly makes us a powerhouse and to be up there with Colorado? Yeah.......no

If the Flames centre depth, instead of the current

Lindholm-Backlund-Monahan-Richardson

instead was

Lindholm-Bennett-Backlund-Monahan

that is a dramatic improvement. Replacing Richardson with Bennett is a huge upgrade. Of course that wouldn't put this team anywhere close to on par with Colorado in terms of offensive talent. However, when you factor in the Flames superior goaltending, coaching, and arguably better checking game, it would put this team in the same category as Colorado and Vegas in terms of overall team quality.

Originally Posted by TOfan

Curious to know why you think Treliving didn’t want to hire Sutter right after the bubble? Why did it take the Flames 3-4 weeks after the bubble to announce Ward was the coach? How do we know Sutter just wasn’t ready to come back at that time, leaving the Flames to go with plan B?

Again, it has been acknowledged by Treliving and Sutter that the Flames approached Sutter after Peters left. To me, that would suggest he was their primary target all along.

Fair point. I wonder though why he wouldn't have been available during that offseason but suddenly was available mid-season.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Fair point. I wonder though why he wouldn't have been available during that offseason but suddenly was available mid-season.

Probably a multitude of reasons. First of all, Sutter had previously retired from coaching. Life was probably pretty good up on the farm. Did he want to leave that and put himself in a high demand position where he is probably working endlessly. It kind of feels like the thing you need to commit to pretty seriously. How did his wife and son feel about that? Then you layer on the pandemic and everything that came with that. It could have very well been the worst time ever, or at least one of the most unappealing times ever, to coach in the NHL.

So if he wasn’t falling over himself to return to coaching, at least you can see there are a few reasons why.

EDIT: at the end of the day, and you are certainly not alone, but laying the blame at the feet of Treliving for the timing of when Sutter was hired completely removes Sutter from the equation. Sutter had to agree to come back. Sutter not coming until March, or whenever it was, probably had a lot more to do with what he wanted, not the Flames.

[talladega.25]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I think Tre has done a fine job over these past 3/4 years, with the notable exception of not replacing Ward with Sutter immediately following the series loss to the Stars.

If the top six was:

Johnny-Lindy-Chucky
Coleman-Bennett-Mangi

This team would be right up there with Colorado as a dominant power in the west. Oh, what could have been...

Anyhow, the prospect pool looks reasonably good. Pelletier, Wolf, Mackey all appear to have promising futures. Too early to know how each young player in Stockton will pan out, but time will tell.

Cap situation this summer will be a challenge without a doubt, but I don't have reason to believe Tre doesn't have a plan for each scenario based on who gets signed and who (potentially) doesn't.

I don't think Bennett was ever going to be the player here like the player he is in Florida. Playing with one of the most dynamic and underrated players in the league as well will also inflate his perceived value and contributions. I will admit he wasn't handled properly by the Flames at times but his failures here are also on him.

[1_Flames_Fan]

I gotta admit seeing Kadri light up the league this year feels like a kick in the sack. Can't blame that on Tre though as he did try to get him and it was completely Kadri's decision.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

Tre should have been fired years ago for building such a 98lb weakling,soft as butter team.
This has changed after Sutter arrived but I'm sure Sutter had some input into making this team harder to play against.

and i still can't believe he signed diving ass piece of crap James Neal to this team. he should have been instantly fired after that.

It's kind of funny that you say the team was too soft...but then in the same breath critize a move he made to bring more of a edge / nastyness on to the team in Neal.

And honestly James Neal is still a really weird signing because it shouldn't have been that bad, that fast. There were no real indications that such a sharp decline coming.

Neal might be the best recent example of a player signing a big contract and just not caring any more. He honestly just gave up that season and I think that's why I hate him more than I actually hate that signing.

In the 5 seasons before signing in Calgary James Neal was a legitimate 1st line forward from a produciton perspective.

Goals: 129 (22nd)
Points: 241 (72nd)

And the underlying numbers were good too.

Evolving Hockey had him rated as the 24th best forward in the league by Goals Above Replacement, and the 23rd best player in the league by Expected Goals Above Replacement over those 5 seasons.

In the 17-18 season itself he was 26th in xGAR, and 44th in GAR. So still a pretty elite clip just the season before signing in Calgary.

This wasn't a Troy Brouwer scenario where they signed a player that was average to start with, and already declining, to an overvalued contract.

Neal was a top end player for 10 straight seasons before signing in Calgary (ranked 21st among forwards over those 10 years according to Evolving Hockey's model)...and then fell off a cliff.



Honestly outside of just signing a big deal and then not caring anymore I'm not sure what happened to Neal during that 2018 off-season.

Treliving made some bad signings and decisions - but there was a ton of bad luck involved in back to back offseasons when he signed James Neal only for him to become the worst player in the league in 2018, and then the trade for Kadri and Brown being blocked by Kadri, only for Kadri to then go to Colorado and help them become a powerhouse.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by talladega.25

I don't think Bennett was ever going to be the player here like the player he is in Florida. Playing with one of the most dynamic and underrated players in the league as well will also inflate his perceived value and contributions. I will admit he wasn't handled properly by the Flames at times but his failures here are also on him.

I'd say dynamic and underrated describes Mangiapane quite well. Good as his goal total is, he got those goals without having a dynamic center on his line. He's probably better than his current numbers show.

Bennett-Mangiapane combo may have worked out incredibly well. We will never know.

[Macman]

With the team playing well and winning I'm thinking that Brad Treliving has actually done a good job and has been a good GM. I thought he would be fired.

Bringing Darryl Sutter back as coach certainly didn't hurt. You can also look at his player signings and see that they're good players and good contracts too.

I was listening to the Fan 960 this afternoon and they were talking about the Oilers and how bad their roster is after their top 2 players. May not be a high bar but still.

That trade for Elias Lindholm and Noah Hanifin for Dougie Hamilton, Michael Ferland and Adam Fox was a good trade in hindsight and as good as you could have possibly gotten.

Lindholm and Hanifin were also RFAs I believe.

Elias Lindholm has also become a better player than he ever was and is about to have his 3rd 20+ goal season with the Flames, he had 19 last year and didn't score 20 prior to coming to the Flames.

Then there's Jacob Markstrom, Tanev, Zadorov.

Plus he drafted Matthew Tkachuk if I'm not mistaken.

So there's a good body of work there that seems to out weigh the bad.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Macman

With the team playing well and winning I'm thinking that Brad Treliving has actually done a good job and has been a good GM. I though he would be fired.

Bringing Darryl Sutter back as coach certainly didn't hurt. You can also look at his player signings and see that they're good players and good contracts too.

I was listening to the Fan 960 this afternoon and they were talking about the Oilers and how bad their roster is after their top 2 players. May not be a high bar but still.

That trade for Elias Lindholm and Noah Hanifin for Dougie Hamilton, Michael Ferland and Adam Fox was a good trade in hindsight and as good as you could have possible gotten.

Lindholm and Hanifin were also RFAs I believe.

Elias Lindholm has also become a better player than he ever was and is about to have his 3rd 20+ goal season with the Flames, he had 19 last year and didn't score 20 prior to coming to the Flames.

Then there's Jacob Markstrom, Tanev, Zadorov.

Plus he drafted Matthew Tkachuk if I'm not mistaken.

So there's a good body of work there that seems to out weigh the bad.

It's become quite apparent IMO, that Treliving's biggest weakness was hiring a head coach.

And that looks to have caused this core to spin it's wheels through the majority of it's supposed contention window.

Hopefully Sutter can salvage what's left of it, which could be just another 3-4 months if Gaudreau walks.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Macman

With the team playing well and winning I'm thinking that Brad Treliving has actually done a good job and has been a good GM. I thought he would be fired.

Bringing Darryl Sutter back as coach certainly didn't hurt. You can also look at his player signings and see that they're good players and good contracts too.

I was listening to the Fan 960 this afternoon and they were talking about the Oilers and how bad their roster is after their top 2 players. May not be a high bar but still.

That trade for Elias Lindholm and Noah Hanifin for Dougie Hamilton, Michael Ferland and Adam Fox was a good trade in hindsight and as good as you could have possibly gotten.

Lindholm and Hanifin were also RFAs I believe.

Elias Lindholm has also become a better player than he ever was and is about to have his 3rd 20+ goal season with the Flames, he had 19 last year and didn't score 20 prior to coming to the Flames.

Then there's Jacob Markstrom, Tanev, Zadorov.

Plus he drafted Matthew Tkachuk if I'm not mistaken.

So there's a good body of work there that seems to out weigh the bad.

I'm glad somebody posted a message like this. I've always liked Tre, and I feel like a lot of his misses came down to bad luck. The Oilers are just a mess.

[GioforPM]

The thing with Treliving, even with the mistakes, like Neal, you could see the point, or the goal. Neal was supposed to be the big scoring winger that was needed. Hamonic was the defensive RHS needed to round out Brodie, Gio and Hamilton. The error was in the choice of personnel.

[Jay Random]

In Neal's case, it was more bad timing than anything else. The team desperately needed a scorer at right wing that summer, and the pickings were pretty slim. Based on his track record, Neal was easily the best of a bad UFA crop at the position.

Hamonic, on the other hand, I was uneasy about even at the time. I understood why Treliving wanted that particular player, but I thought it was a significant overpayment. But it looks a hell of a lot worse in hindsight.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Macman

With the team playing well and winning I'm thinking that Brad Treliving has actually done a good job and has been a good GM. I thought he would be fired.

Bringing Darryl Sutter back as coach certainly didn't hurt. You can also look at his player signings and see that they're good players and good contracts too.

I was listening to the Fan 960 this afternoon and they were talking about the Oilers and how bad their roster is after their top 2 players. May not be a high bar but still.

That trade for Elias Lindholm and Noah Hanifin for Dougie Hamilton, Michael Ferland and Adam Fox was a good trade in hindsight and as good as you could have possibly gotten.

Lindholm and Hanifin were also RFAs I believe.

Elias Lindholm has also become a better player than he ever was and is about to have his 3rd 20+ goal season with the Flames, he had 19 last year and didn't score 20 prior to coming to the Flames.

Then there's Jacob Markstrom, Tanev, Zadorov.

Plus he drafted Matthew Tkachuk if I'm not mistaken.

So there's a good body of work there that seems to out weigh the bad.

I'll reiterate what I've said for a while now.

Brad Treliving is a good GM. He knows how to build the bones and structure of a team which is a critical element.

But I still think at some point in the near future he needs to be fired and replaced.

He simply isnt the guy who is going to make the moves that are going to put the team 'over the top.'

And thats fine. There is nothing wrong with that. Its not an indictment against him. Doing crazy things to drag this team over the finish line is counter to his intuition and his ethos. Thats okay.

We've seen it a lot in the NHL where a GM builds a core and then is relieved of his duties so someone else can come in and do some insane moves to put the team into serious contention.

[dino7c]

Team is first in the pacific and you bump this lol

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Team is first in the pacific and you bump this lol

Montreal made the finals last year but Marc Bergevin was still a bad GM who needed to go.

It's no different with Treliving.

The Flames are having a great season, but with a better GM they could have been having great seasons for a while now and they could be much better set up to have more in the immediate future.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Yeah, success in a given season is no way to judge a GM. You need to look at the body of their work and most importantly continue to measure if the team is trending in the right or wrong direction. Treliving has positioned the team on a precipice, and the wrong move could cause an epic landslide that destroys the team. Control over important assets have been lost, leaving the team in a tough position. Sure, the team is playing well, but the team is also in a position to lose it's top player for nothing come free agency, then be backed into a corner on two of the team's other top scorers. Managing your assets is the biggest job of the GM, and I think the Flames are in a pickle because of Treliving's poor skills in this regard. Treliving is no different than Bergevin IMO, and could be shown the door quickly if things go sideways on the contract front this spring.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Yeah, success in a given season is no way to judge a GM. You need to look at the body of their work and most importantly continue to measure if the team is trending in the right or wrong direction. Treliving has positioned the team on a precipice, and the wrong move could cause an epic landslide that destroys the team. Control over important assets have been lost, leaving the team in a tough position. Sure, the team is playing well, but the team is also in a position to lose it's top player for nothing come free agency, then be backed into a corner on two of the team's other top scorers. Managing your assets is the biggest job of the GM, and I think the Flames are in a pickle because of Treliving's poor skills in this regard. Treliving is no different than Bergevin IMO, and could be shown the door quickly if things go sideways on the contract front this spring.

IF he loses Gaudreau for nothing you COULD make the case that he should have moved him when he didn't get him signed.

That's a pretty flaky foundation to judge anything from since we have no idea.

The fact that he didn't trade him suggests that maybe he feels he will sign him, so then the asset management thing just disappears.

Comments like Craig Button recently suggesting Gaudreau will sign seemed pretty confident. Guys like Steinberg who are around the team keep saying they think he'll sign as well.

No point in criticizing or applauding anything until the actual result is in.

It would have been worse asset management to move a player for a poor return because you had an internal rule that he had to be signed even though you feel strong he will be signed.

Bottom line ... the team is good. The GM gets some of that credit. Silly to argue otherwise.