High-Profile Sexual Abuse Epidemic

[speede5]

We had our Christmas luncheon at work yesterday. We ordered in chinese to the office. 70/30 Male female staff. The reading of the fortunes took the turn where you had to follow the fortune with "in bed". Everyone had a good laugh. I couldn't help but think of this thread and how this could all go south.

[CaptainCrunch]

The easiest thing to do is be professional and not personal in the workplace.

The things that you can get away with, with your friends, are barriers in the workplace.

Don't talk to people about personal things at work. Treat them like colleagues and not confidants.

If your company has a policy about workplace romances, then don't romance at work.

Basically let the other person make the move and if they do and you can take advantage of it to propel up the corporate ladder then do it as well.

Personally, I avoid the whole drinking with people at work. When they have events like Christmas parties I'll make an appearance and then head out the side door after an appropriate amount of time.

I'm not at work to expand my social club.

I dated in the work place a long time and that's a fricken mine field that nobody should try to navigate. This isn't a movie, its a real life thing and a wrong step has huge costs to your future.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

dp

DP??????

How guache.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The easiest thing to do is be professional and not personal in the workplace...

Don't talk to people about personal things at work. Treat them like colleagues and not confidants.

I agree but I did want to point out that I spend the majority of my time either at work or sleeping (not at the same time). Some of the best friends I have in life I've met at work. I think it's important to be able to have personal relationships with people you spend so much time with. That said, understanding who else is in earshot of your "that's what she said" joke is important.

I also feel like this conversation is potentially on it's way to hitting a slippery slope. You can be professional, friendly, funny and even a little blue at times (in appropriate company) at work without it constituting a threat to another person's sensibilities.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The easiest thing to do is be professional and not personal in the workplace.

The things that you can get away with, with your friends, are barriers in the workplace.

Don't talk to people about personal things at work. Treat them like colleagues and not confidants.

If your company has a policy about workplace romances, then don't romance at work.

Basically let the other person make the move and if they do and you can take advantage of it to propel up the corporate ladder then do it as well.

Personally, I avoid the whole drinking with people at work. When they have events like Christmas parties I'll make an appearance and then head out the side door after an appropriate amount of time.

I'm not at work to expand my social club.

I dated in the work place a long time and that's a fricken mine field that nobody should try to navigate. This isn't a movie, its a real life thing and a wrong step has huge costs to your future.

This is why as a man it is always more enjoyable to work with all men. You don't have to walk on egg shells.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

This is why as a man it is always more enjoyable to work with all men. You don't have to walk on egg shells.

Are you missing the point of this thread and current discussion?

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Well yeah, that's exactly my point.

People making comments about coworkers in the lunch room probably isn't appropriate for men or women.

People making comments about a bartender at a work function may or may not be crossing the line.

The difference is context, who is making the comments, and the specifics of the comments.


In my office there are three groups of people:
1) People I can joke around with and don't have to worry about offending
2) People who I know I should be more respectful and careful what I say around
3) People who I'm not sure if they are in group 1 or 2

If you don't know what group they are in, assume they are group 2 until you know for sure, it's not that hard.

For most people, the fact that this issue is coming to light so strongly recently isn't an issue because a lot of us know, or have learned through experience, how to read the room and when various levels of interaction are appropriate (who's in which group).

The people who are taking offence to this issue, or are worried we are moving to a place where were we never say anything to anyone are likely the people who only think there is group 1, or have never figured out the bold part.

To address your specific point about how this situation was different let me ask you this. Were you offended or felt threatened based on what the women said, or are you just upset that they are allowed to say it and you aren't?

If it's the former then you shouldn't treat this any different and should consider discussing it with them and explaining how/why that is.
If it's the latter, then you are exactly the type of person I'm talking about who doesn't understand why there is/should be consideration given to who is making a statement and in what context.

At work, when it comes to making comments men and women should be held to the exact same standard. I agree with you on most of what you are saying, context is the difference. Not at work when it comes to making sexual comments. Most men aren't going to say a word about a comment that made them uncomfortable because they are going to get the exact reaction you are presenting here. "Well it's different for women, you're a man you don't feel unsafe." It's not always about feeling "unsafe" it could just be feeling uncomfortable. Lewd comments at work should be a problem for both genders.

I do agree with you that many people need to figure out that there are people you can act differently around, that isn't easy for everyone so they are going to react the way we're talking about here. By shutting down and taking no chances.

They problem is we're making a really big assumption that everyone is capable of reading situations and social cues the same way, they aren't and there needs to be a little less outrage when things aren't a big deal. When it's coworkers where the power dynamic is the same a reasonable response would be to talk to the person that made the comment. Going to the media and trying to get them fired while being outraged is an over the top response.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by AFireInside

At work, when it comes to making comments men and women should be held to the exact same standard. I agree with you on most of what you are saying, context is the difference. Not at work when it comes to making sexual comments. Most men aren't going to say a word about a comment that made them uncomfortable because they are going to get the exact reaction you are presenting here. "Well it's different for women, you're a man you don't feel unsafe." It's not always about feeling "unsafe" it could just be feeling uncomfortable. Lewd comments at work should be a problem for both genders.

I do agree with you that many people need to figure out that there are people you can act differently around, that isn't easy for everyone so they are going to react the way we're talking about here. By shutting down and taking no chances.

They problem is we're making a really big assumption that everyone is capable of reading situations and social cues the same way, they aren't and there needs to be a little less outrage when things aren't a big deal. When it's coworkers where the power dynamic is the same a reasonable response would be to talk to the person that made the comment. Going to the media and trying to get them fired while being outraged is an over the top response.

The first bold statement is 100% true, they should be held to the exact same standard. But the standard isn't "Don't say anything" it's don't make other people uncomfortable.

The second bold statement is missing that point.

I'm going to assume that you weren't actually offended by what woman B said. If you were then you have a point, and I'm still going to use your example as a hypothetical where there is seemingly a double standard, but in reality there isn't.

In your example Woman A made a lewd comment to Woman B. Everyone there was comfortable with it (again, I'm assuming you weren't actually offended by what she said).

The same standard doesn't mean you can make a similar comment about a female bartender to Woman B. The standard is you can make a similar comment to people with whom you are in the same standing as the relationship between Woman A and B.

Woman B probably knows Woman A is making a joke and isn't going to follow up on her comment. She may or may not know that about you, or anyone else for that matter. You have a different relationship with different boundaries.

That's what context means. The context isn't "Who is a man, and who is a woman" it's "What is the relationship between the people in this group, and are there dynamics that make it reasonable to assume that certain statements, or actions are appropriate or not".

If you truly were offended by what Woman A said, then yes, you are holding them to the same standard. But if you simply think, I can't make lewd remarks to Woman B, therefore Woman A shouldn't, then you are either not enforcing a common standard, or YOU are the one who is creating the world were no one can say anything, that you seem to be worried is coming.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

The first bold statement is 100% true, they should be held to the exact same standard. But the standard isn't "Don't say anything" it's don't make other people uncomfortable.

The second bold statement is missing that point.

I'm going to assume that you weren't actually offended by what woman B said. If you were then you have a point, and I'm still going to use your example as a hypothetical where there is seemingly a double standard, but in reality there isn't.

In your example Woman A made a lewd comment to Woman B. Everyone there was comfortable with it (again, I'm assuming you weren't actually offended by what she said).

The same standard doesn't mean you can make a similar comment about a female bartender to Woman B. The standard is you can make a similar comment to people with whom you are in the same standing as the relationship between Woman A and B.

Woman B probably knows Woman A is making a joke and isn't going to follow up on her comment. She may or may not know that about you, or anyone else for that matter. You have a different relationship with different boundaries.

That's what context means. The context isn't "Who is a man, and who is a woman" it's "What is the relationship between the people in this group, and are there dynamics that make it reasonable to assume that certain statements, or actions are appropriate or not".

If you truly were offended by what Woman A said, then yes, you are holding them to the same standard. But if you simply think, I can't make lewd remarks to Woman B, therefore Woman A shouldn't, then you are either not enforcing a common standard, or YOU are the one who is creating the world were no one can say anything, that you seem to be worried is coming.

I agree context is important. For me it's not about well if I can't say it you shouldn't be able to, that's childish. I'm not missing the point at all, that thought has never once crossed my mind. I know what context means. I, like you have colleagues that I know I can talk a certain way with and ones that I keep it 100% professional.

I agree with you on recognizing whom you can say certain things to, you have to know your audience. That's not at all what I'm referring to. I'm saying if it makes a man uncomfortable then women need to be held to the exact same standard, period. That's it. I think we're essentially agreeing but saying it in a different way. Maybe not.

I'm also pointing out that many men would never say something like that made them uncomfortable because of reactions like yours. Even though I don't think that's what you're saying and would be supportive of a man coming forward. It feels like there's a thought that a man can't because it's different for men. I've had women in higher positions make comments to/about me that made me feel a little uncomfortable (not sexual comments necessarily) but I'd never say anything about it. First of all it's probably not worth it, secondly I'd be labelled a certain way and that probably hurts my career.

When it comes to these types of situations though we need to stop acting like it's traumatizing. A coworker making a comment that makes you uncomfortable doesn't necessarily require that they be fired and dragged through the mud on social media.

The threesome comment isn't traumatizing and we need to stops acting like it is. Inappropriate, sure, traumatizing no. If it is traumatizing to you then you need to be an adult and recognize that maybe you need to get some help.

It doesn't seem to me that like many here are saying if they can say it I can too, granted I haven't read every single post.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

This is why as a man it is always more enjoyable to work with all men. You don't have to walk on egg shells.

Actually I kind of feel the opposite. I find when I'm working with all dudes or all white people, there's much more peer pressure to laugh off or join in on sexist or racist jokes. I never seem to have that problem when working with women.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

What you and every other dude who thinks this is a slippery slope leading to a day when no one can ever ask anyone out is missing is that equality doesn't mean everyone is being treated equally.

I won't speak for anyone else, but for me this is missing the point of what people like Cliff and myself are mentioning. It's not a fear mongering thing, and it's certainly not an advocacy for stopping people speaking out about their feelings or really even a "slippery slope" argument of some impending sexless world. It's just and observation that men are becoming more guarded in their interactions with women both in the workplace and otherwise. Again, this should come as a surprise to no one. It's a natural reaction. That's the whole point of the #metoo movement. To adjust our behaviour. Some of us are maybe, not "concerned about", but interested in, the finer nuances between the universally understood lines of sexual assault and harassment and instances of one-off jokes, foot-in-mouth moments, or just being a socially awkward person and being worried about being labeled something worse (creepy, something that can spread and exaggerate amongst friend groups) because you misread something. Yes power-driven sexual harassment/assault is the proverbial atom bomb here, the fallout is a bunch of different things. Discussing what are natural causalities in human behaviour is not a sky-is-falling outlook. It's not a bad thing to suggest women may end up having to be more forward than they have traditionally been due to a massive sweep of men's behaviour being exposed as overall pretty piggish. Being worried about whether or not we fall into that category is natural (yes, even if you very much don't).

Like it or not, men are, and should be held to a higher standard when it comes to things like this because by and large, we are likely in a position that will make women feel uncomfortable when we make comments like that.

Is the male bartender going to be offended by this? Maybe.
Is he going to feel like he us unsafe, or unable to defend himself should it go farther than lewd comments? Probably not.

Now ask the same questions about a female server and male customers.

The fact is women have many reasons beyond "I don't want to have sex with that guy" that that sort of interaction may make them uncomfortable. And guys who say "If it's not okay for me to make those kinds of remarks, why is it okay for women?" are missing the point entirely.
It's not solely about the comments, there is a whole lot of context that goes along with it. And you know what, in the right context, sometimes it is okay for you to make those kinds of remarks, sometimes it isn't. The issue is, too many dudes don't understand which is which.

I agree with this, except if a male coworker leans into a conversation women are having about explicit stuff regarding men around them, and implies it makes them uncomfortable, the proper response (like if the roles were reversed) is to apologize and change the subject. No different than any other social setting where a topic is making someone uncomfortable. Not to jump at them and give them a dressing down about some warped view of feminism that they think gives them the right to be gross.

[PsYcNeT]

I can't be the only one who feels like men taking the time to be considerate of their actions, words and intentions going forward is anything but a bad thing.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Yes, and it's very helpful of you to add that, Psycnet, because I see a ton of people suggesting precisely the opposite.

[PsYcNeT]

Well I'm really just wondering where all the lamentations of potential for slippery slopes or the loss of spontaneous passion or whatnot are coming from.

Is this the male-version of Disneyfication of relationships?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Well I'm really just wondering where all the lamentations of potential for slippery slopes or the loss of spontaneous passion or whatnot are coming from.

Is this the male-version of Disneyfication of relationships?

No no, you see, nobody is saying it’s a bad thing, there is just endless complaining, woeing, and dreading about this thing that totally isn’t a bad thing to anybody, so it was important that someone pointed it out to you that nobody has used very specific phrasing.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

The persistent inability of ideologues to acknowledge the nuance of any given moral issue was once a continuous source of depression for me. But now that I've embraced nihilism fully, it simply reaffirms my views! Bring on that extinction level asteroid, universe. We're ready.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The persistent inability of ideologues to acknowledge the nuance of any given moral issue was once a continuous source of depression for me. But now that I've embraced nihilism fully, it simply reaffirms my views! Bring on that extinction level asteroid, universe. We're ready.

I don't know if it's ideologues or maybe just people who find not creeping out women to be kind of easy. Maybe that's an oversight or a lack of empathy though. I'm not even saying I'm particularly good at approaching the opposite sex, but I do have a fairly good idea of what does and doesn't make people uncomfortable.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Well I'm really just wondering where all the lamentations of potential for slippery slopes or the loss of spontaneous passion or whatnot are coming from.

Is this the male-version of Disneyfication of relationships?

I'm not really reading that much. I see people posting that they, or other men are going to be more guarded and that responses to some of these situations are over blown. The response they are getting is well if that's how it you think you're the problem which is not true.

The other comments are saying men and women should be held to the same standard when it comes to inappropriate comments. The response they get is no, it's different for the women. It isn't.

It's different when there are power dynamics, or situational factors (ie in an elevator at 4am).

As MattyC said above if the something said in an office makes someone from the opposite gender uncomfortable the appropriate response is to apologize and change the subject. Not tell them it's different for them and they need to figure out the context. That dismisses their feelings. On the other side the appropriate response isn't to act traumatized and and permanently damaged.

Seems like both sides are exaggerating what the other is saying to try and make a point. Looks to me like liked most posters are generally in agreement

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I don't know if it's ideologues or maybe just people who find not creeping out women to be kind of easy. Maybe that's an oversight or a lack of empathy though. I'm not even saying I'm particularly good at approaching the opposite sex, but I do have a fairly good idea of what does and doesn't make people uncomfortable.

I think it might be. I've heard other guys express similar sentiments to Matty. One of the issues that women in my office are currently trying to shed some light on is a failure by male colleagues to mentor female juniors - guys will ask other guys to go to lunch, or to grab a beer, where they'll talk shop, and some of our female colleagues never seem to get invited. You might call it a sort of "new boys' club" mentality. I've had conversations with some of my male colleagues who say that they simply don't want a woman they work with to misconstrue their intentions in asking them for drinks. When it's pointed out that that seems far-fetched, the response is that it's just not worth the risk. I've heard this on independent occasions in almost the same words, so it's not so easily dismissed as you seem to think.

And before anyone asks, no, I'm not among these anonymous sources, I don't really feel like taking a stance on this for reasons I won't get into. But the couple of guys who have stated their lack of sure-footedness in this thread clearly aren't some vanishingly small minority.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I think it might be. I've heard other guys express similar sentiments to Matty. One of the issues that women in my office are currently trying to shed some light on is a failure by male colleagues to mentor female juniors - guys will ask other guys to go to lunch, where they'll talk shop, and some of our female colleagues never seem to get invited. You might call it a sort of "new boys' club" mentality. I've had conversations with some of my male colleagues who say that they simply don't want a woman they work with to misconstrue their intentions in asking them for drinks. When it's pointed out that that seems far-fetched, the response is that it's just not worth the risk. I've heard this on independent occasions in almost the same words, so it's not so easily dismissed as you seem to think.

Yeah that seems totally bizarre to me. I don't generally do work social events anymore for a number of reasons, but I don't think I ever had any issues with asking women I've worked with to come for drinks. Pretty easy to make it known that something is explicitly a work-related or group social function.