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Old 05-23-2018, 03:36 PM   #621
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Ok calm down CHL. One of the best TV arcs ever made? An absolute classic?

No show gets that after one season. It's a well made show with a great concept that had a strong first season.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:38 PM   #622
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Ok calm down CHL. One of the best TV arcs ever made? An absolute classic?

No show gets that after one season. It's a well made show with a great concept that had a strong first season.
Wrong. See: True Detective.

Seriously, Westworld season 1 is one of the best seasons of television ever created. Granted, this is the golden age of TV, so you expect more of those contenders to happen now, but even in the current environment it was an amazing achievement in the medium.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:43 PM   #623
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True Detective was a single season story.
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:56 PM   #624
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... And? After one season it got that accolade, correctly.

Also, Westworld S1 is actually a pretty self-contained story; if they'd just left it alone there it would have been just fine as is.
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Old 05-23-2018, 05:05 PM   #625
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I really liked them meeting their doubles in the Samerai world. And the Delos Head create a robot human hybrid plot is really good.

Delores/Wyatt has been a lot weaker this season as Delores knows more than us.
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Old 05-23-2018, 05:10 PM   #626
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... And? After one season it got that accolade, correctly.

Also, Westworld S1 is actually a pretty self-contained story; if they'd just left it alone there it would have been just fine as is.
And ... they're not the same. Westworld wasn't planned as a single season show, which is why it ramps into a cliffhanger at the end of season 1.

So, no, it wouldn't have been fine. The accolades you want to put on it are way too premature since it hasn't even told its story yet.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:17 PM   #627
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And ... they're not the same. Westworld wasn't planned as a single season show, which is why it ramps into a cliffhanger at the end of season 1.

So, no, it wouldn't have been fine. The accolades you want to put on it are way too premature since it hasn't even told its story yet.
Disagree to some extent. I think Westworld season 1 would have worked great as a standalone. It was one of the best first seasons of any show ever. Now they have to not squander that.

Through 5 episodes of season 2 there has been some good stuff, but in comparison, by episode 5 of the first year I was mesmerized.

The best comparison I've heard so far is Lost Season 2. They just didn't know how to continue their story and started to make missteps. They still landed some great scenes and episodes, but overall things started to go the wrong way. Hopefully they get things back on track and have a better idea of where they want to on this one than Lost did.
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Old 05-25-2018, 12:02 PM   #628
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I find these go for broke, big budget series are doing that serialization after a major production investment in the original season. Everything is really great and then we land in season 2 only to have the story really being dragged out (probably on account of budget). Westworld and Handmaids Tale.
I think this comment has been overlooked as it's kind of spot on. In the first season, they had a vision that bled onto the screen, but they had to create a fascinating hook in the event it had the potential to become a phenom. They nailed it.

Now, they know they have an audience and are in it for the long haul. That means dragging a story into 4, 5, maybe 6 seasons. Where there was no filler in season 1, there is going to be plenty of it heading forward.

That doesn't always have to be a bad thing as filler can be done right. Episodes that took a slight step away in shows like Breaking Bad, The Shield, Justified, etc. seemed to work. I think of the fly episode of BB as a good example: they put a slight pause on the primary plot, but it was engaging as hell.

I'm definitely not giving up on this show as I think the overall premise and philosophy is fun and provoking. However, I do notice a quality difference from the first 10 to the next 5.
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Old 05-27-2018, 07:35 AM   #629
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I really liked them meeting their doubles in the Samerai world. And the Delos Head create a robot human hybrid plot is really good.

Delores/Wyatt has been a lot weaker this season as Delores knows more than us.
That's the only real engaging part of the season so far for me, and that episode (ep4?) was fantastic.

That leaves me with some hope and wanting to see more, but I'm getting pretty bored of every other story line. Bernard is the only robot I have any interest in following right now. Could pretty much fast forward through the Delores and Maeve subplots.
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Old 05-27-2018, 08:31 AM   #630
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Watched the first season in a couple of marathon sessions over the last couple of weeks based on a friend's recommendation, then got a few episodes into season 2. The timeline manipulation was surprising and a nice twist in the end, but for the most part I find the writing to be pretty poor. Dialogue often feels hackney and there are things that take place with the technology that just seem inconsistent with their own reality. The characters and acting are also sometimes more out of daytime drama than out of top end HBO stuff. It's not bad. Entertaining enough, but certainly not rave-worthy.
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Old 05-27-2018, 11:22 AM   #631
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Watched the first season in a couple of marathon sessions over the last couple of weeks based on a friend's recommendation, then got a few episodes into season 2. The timeline manipulation was surprising and a nice twist in the end, but for the most part I find the writing to be pretty poor. Dialogue often feels hackney and there are things that take place with the technology that just seem inconsistent with their own reality. The characters and acting are also sometimes more out of daytime drama than out of top end HBO stuff. It's not bad. Entertaining enough, but certainly not rave-worthy.
The second season has lagged and dropped in consistent quality, but I fully disagree that the writing is poor. The way they weave in philosophical theories (consciousness, reality, identity, etc) into a premise of a robot theme park is pretty impressive, especially when you go back and watch the source material.

There are definitely moments that feel like a daytime drama, but I think that's due to the park's design. Hosts are supposed to be stereotypical, outlandish personalities that give guests a thrill that they are familiar with, ie movies, TV, and so forth. Hell, everything about the introduction of Sweetwater is pulled directly from a typical Western genre piece. The dialogue is supposed to be hackney, that's the appeal.

I'm not sure what you mean by the technology. What parts seem inconsistent to you?

I'm not ready to put Westworld on the platform with other major TV successes quite yet, but the first season reflected all the same qualities as any show I would consider in that category.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:42 AM   #632
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So, through 7 episodes this season is everything right back where we started?

Maeve and Lee started out at the Mesa, with Maeve determined to find her daughter somewhere in the park(s)! Now, at the end of episode 7, the only difference is now Maeve is shot up, but otherwise, back at the Mesa, Maeve still determined to find her daughter somewhere in the park(s)!

In the first episode, Dolores and Teddy are on a mission to get to the valley beyond. Seven episodes later, and they're still on their mission to the valley beyond! Teddy has been 'upgraded' to a killing machine, but other than that, not much has changed.

William starts out shot and left for dead... now he is shot more and more left for dead.

Episode 1, Charlotte cares only about the company, to hell with everyone else! All that matter is recovering the data in Abernathy's head. End of episode 7, right back to the same spot.

Bernard starts out confused, missing memories, stumbling around... yup, that's where he's at again.

We even begin this season not knowing what has become of Elsie, Felix, Sylvester, Armistice or Hector. Hey, it's the end of episode 7 and all of these characters are missing or abandoned again!

Three episodes to go this season and the plot has barely moved. Other than the great episode with James Delos and young William, this season has been pretty disappointing to me.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:57 AM   #633
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Should rename the show to, Bernard: Dazed and Confused
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:18 PM   #634
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Seems to be the story of a few recent HBO series, very big drops in quality after the first season. True Detective was another one just like that.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:43 PM   #635
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Seems to be the story of a few recent HBO series, very big drops in quality after the first season. True Detective was another one just like that.
Okay it hasn't been True Detective bad, but it definitely hasn't lived up to the first season.
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Old 06-06-2018, 01:14 PM   #636
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I get that they were trying to do something a bit different with the perpetually confused Bernard time jumping thing this whole season, though the result has sometimes been frustrating as it has contributed to the feeling that progress isn't being made. but from as far as sci-fi topics go, I find transhumanism to be more fascinating than the well-traveled road of sentient AI, so I'm still getting something out of this.

the real question is, how did the Man in Black become impervious to bullets? starting with the end of last season, he's been eating real lead at regular intervals, culminating in the 5 or so shots he just took running into Maeve (including a close range one straight into the chest). he was so happy that the stakes are true life and death now, but there doesn't seem to be much difference compared to when he was getting pelted with non-lethal rounds before the uprising.
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Old 06-06-2018, 01:22 PM   #637
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I thought that last episode set the course for getting back on the right path. Once again Ford shows up to mess with the concepts of free will and slavery, and whether he be God or the Devil he is going to push Bernard through 'the Door' one way or the other.

Now that the majority of the major hosts have consciousness, this season seems to be a slow and cyclical burn on them discovering their own voices, and those of their fellow hosts. I hated the Delores character after the first 3 or 4 episodes, but in the last little bit Evan Rachel Wood has done a marvelous job of showing off the character's conflict, especially when it comes to what she's done to Teddy, and what is happening with her 'father'. Bernard is the closest to the truth, but also the most compromised.

My earlier theory has been shot to hell (blackmail), and it looks like the park was a testing ground for transferring conscience. I would be really excited if the show took a deep, dark look at identity once they fully iron out the characters. That's a season on its own.

We saw a valley full of dead hosts and Bernard claiming he killed them. We are slowly finding out how that came about. We've seen William's transformation into the Man in Black in far greater detail with his flashbacks to Delos and his efforts to re-create James Delos. Ford's mind has been copied into a virtual world, and is now inhabiting Bernard's mind. Maeve, Armistice, and Hector have all looked in the mirror, and Maeve at least has seen nothing but tragedy and sacrifice. Elsie has been a major player this season, as recent as the last episode. And Bernard's fractured memory is the entire structure of the storytelling (not that you have to like it).

So to say that there has been little to no plot progression, or to claim that there is no plot at all, is a bit disingenuous. Again, the pace has been plodding compared to the first season, but it's still a top 3 current-run show for me.
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Old 06-06-2018, 01:52 PM   #638
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I thought that last episode set the course for getting back on the right path. Once again Ford shows up to mess with the concepts of free will and slavery, and whether he be God or the Devil he is going to push Bernard through 'the Door' one way or the other.

Now that the majority of the major hosts have consciousness, this season seems to be a slow and cyclical burn on them discovering their own voices, and those of their fellow hosts. I hated the Delores character after the first 3 or 4 episodes, but in the last little bit Evan Rachel Wood has done a marvelous job of showing off the character's conflict, especially when it comes to what she's done to Teddy, and what is happening with her 'father'. Bernard is the closest to the truth, but also the most compromised.

My earlier theory has been shot to hell (blackmail), and it looks like the park was a testing ground for transferring conscience. I would be really excited if the show took a deep, dark look at identity once they fully iron out the characters. That's a season on its own.

We saw a valley full of dead hosts and Bernard claiming he killed them. We are slowly finding out how that came about. We've seen William's transformation into the Man in Black in far greater detail with his flashbacks to Delos and his efforts to re-create James Delos. Ford's mind has been copied into a virtual world, and is now inhabiting Bernard's mind. Maeve, Armistice, and Hector have all looked in the mirror, and Maeve at least has seen nothing but tragedy and sacrifice. Elsie has been a major player this season, as recent as the last episode. And Bernard's fractured memory is the entire structure of the storytelling (not that you have to like it).

So to say that there has been little to no plot progression, or to claim that there is no plot at all, is a bit disingenuous. Again, the pace has been plodding compared to the first season, but it's still a top 3 current-run show for me.
I'll stand by my statement that the plot hasn't moved much. In season 1 everything we've seen so far in season 2 would have been accomplished in 3 episodes tops. There have been 4 episodes of unneeded filler so far in season 2, in my opinion. I agree with your earlier comment that calgarywinning nailed it. Now that they have an indefinite amount of time to tell the story, they're going to drag it out. This could be ok, if the filler is satisfying. I'm just not enjoying this season even half as much as last season, and that's disappointing.

I'm not going anywhere though. The first season was more than good enough for me to buy in for the long haul and see where this goes. I'm not confident they'll ever reach the heights of season 1 again though.
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Old 06-06-2018, 02:28 PM   #639
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Crazy Clementine makes me smile every time she shows up.
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Old 06-06-2018, 02:30 PM   #640
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I'll stand by my statement that the plot hasn't moved much. In season 1 everything we've seen so far in season 2 would have been accomplished in 3 episodes tops. There have been 4 episodes of unneeded filler so far in season 2, in my opinion. I agree with your earlier comment that calgarywinning nailed it. Now that they have an indefinite amount of time to tell the story, they're going to drag it out. This could be ok, if the filler is satisfying. I'm just not enjoying this season even half as much as last season, and that's disappointing.

I'm not going anywhere though. The first season was more than good enough for me to buy in for the long haul and see where this goes. I'm not confident they'll ever reach the heights of season 1 again though.
I really didn't find that Season 1 moved especially fast. It was a much simpler plot too. Basically robots at park. Robots go bad at some point. We learnt a little about the backstories of William, Bernard, and Ford, but that was pretty much it.

The bigger issue with the show is that it's hard to keep the excitement going once you'e already laid down the bigger shockers associated with William, Bernard, and the map. There's only so many ways you can rehash the concept of humanity and technology being blurred.
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