Let's talk about Cryptocurrencies

[Izzle]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1490495069899702275

[bootsnixon]

Thanks for the responses Itse, AFC and Topfive.

Itse, you cite transaction speed, price and btc value instability as deterrants. All good points. You forced me to do research!

If I may use El Salvador as an example, they encouraged their residents and businesses to use Chivo bitcoin wallets. All transactions between Chivo wallets are instant and free. Chivo wallet operates on the Bitcoin Lightning Network ( or maybe Algorand blockchain or maybe entirely off blockchain with simple accounting software. Internet research is hard,lol.) The Lightning Network is able to perform in the millions of transactions per second. For reference, a cursory search indicated Visa handles 65,000 TPS.

As to the price fluctuation, I agree, it is a problem. But it seems in theory to me, if (and that's a big IF) bitcoin adoption continues, price fluctuation should stabilize. Would you agree with that?

AFC, I'm not sure I understand your comment. Isn't divisability a good thing? If you had one huge potato to feed your family of four but no knife, you could only feed one person. If you divided the big potato into four with a knife, you could feed all four. You would still only have one potato though. Could you expand on your thought please?

Topfive, agreed that real estate has strong use. I tried to explain upthread that Bitcoin has utility as an inflation hedge. Jason14 did a better job of showing crypto's utility as a currency. I don't think we've discussed enough the ability of crypto to bring banking to people currently unable to access it. I think it has the potential to have strong utility to people outside of first world countries.

As to Bitcoin's old tech being surpassed by newer crypto's I agree. Bitcoin has some advantages though. Being first to market, it is currently the most adopted crypto. It is one of very few that is finite. Most importantly, it is, by far, the most decentralized crypto.

I think it boils down to a decision. Does one take advantage of Bitcoin's unique advantages and try to improve upon it's old tech (Lightning Network, layered transactions, atomic swaps, etc)? Or does one choose a newer tech cypto or build their own blockchain crypto? I think the answer will be different for many different people.
It seems clear we are moving to digital currencies in one manner or the other.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by bootsnixon

Thanks for the responses Itse, AFC and Topfive.

Itse, you cite transaction speed, price and btc value instability as deterrants. All good points. You forced me to do research!

If I may use El Salvador as an example, they encouraged their residents and businesses to use Chivo bitcoin wallets. All transactions between Chivo wallets are instant and free. Chivo wallet operates on the Bitcoin Lightning Network ( or maybe Algorand blockchain or maybe entirely off blockchain with simple accounting software. Internet research is hard,lol.) The Lightning Network is able to perform in the millions of transactions per second. For reference, a cursory search indicated Visa handles 65,000 TPS.

As to the price fluctuation, I agree, it is a problem. But it seems in theory to me, if (and that's a big IF) bitcoin adoption continues, price fluctuation should stabilize. Would you agree with that?

AFC, I'm not sure I understand your comment. Isn't divisability a good thing? If you had one huge potato to feed your family of four but no knife, you could only feed one person. If you divided the big potato into four with a knife, you could feed all four. You would still only have one potato though. Could you expand on your thought please?

Topfive, agreed that real estate has strong use. I tried to explain upthread that Bitcoin has utility as an inflation hedge. Jason14 did a better job of showing crypto's utility as a currency. I don't think we've discussed enough the ability of crypto to bring banking to people currently unable to access it. I think it has the potential to have strong utility to people outside of first world countries.

As to Bitcoin's old tech being surpassed by newer crypto's I agree. Bitcoin has some advantages though. Being first to market, it is currently the most adopted crypto. It is one of very few that is finite. Most importantly, it is, by far, the most decentralized crypto.

I think it boils down to a decision. Does one take advantage of Bitcoin's unique advantages and try to improve upon it's old tech (Lightning Network, layered transactions, atomic swaps, etc)? Or does one choose a newer tech cypto or build their own blockchain crypto? I think the answer will be different for many different people.
It seems clear we are moving to digital currencies in one manner or the other.

If you have a potato that feeds one person and five hungry people they will bid on that potato and the price goes up, but if that one potato can be magically divided to feed as many people as you want it no longer has the properties or scarcity of one potato, it has the same property and scarcity of a whole field, region of potato's which is a good thing for the people but not for the farmer, the potato is no longer scarce even though you only have one.

In ancient times people would cut the edges of gold coins to debase the currancy, it was called clipping, but the physical reality of a coin limits how much smaller it can be made before it ceases to exist effectively, bitcoin doesnt have that limit, it can always be divided up, because of that it is effectivelt the same as printing as much as you like, it doesnt matter how much a coin's value goes up if you can just use smaller and smaller portions, it is effectively no different from fiat inflation.

[topfiverecords]

If anyone still cares DOGE is up 10% today

Over $0.21 Canadian

[karl262]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

If you have a potato that feeds one person and five hungry people they will bid on that potato and the price goes up, but if that one potato can be magically divided to feed as many people as you want it no longer has the properties or scarcity of one potato, it has the same property and scarcity of a whole field, region of potato's which is a good thing for the people but not for the farmer, the potato is no longer scarce even though you only have one.

In ancient times people would cut the edges of gold coins to debase the currancy, it was called clipping, but the physical reality of a coin limits how much smaller it can be made before it ceases to exist effectively, bitcoin doesnt have that limit, it can always be divided up, because of that it is effectivelt the same as printing as much as you like, it doesnt matter how much a coin's value goes up if you can just use smaller and smaller portions, it is effectively no different from fiat inflation.

Bitcoin isn't infinitely divisible, it only goes to about 8 decimal points. I think the price will stabilize once all the bitcoins have been mined and the miners themselves are then paid from transaction fees alone. 18.95 million currently mined out of a hard limit of 21 million.

[bootsnixon]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

If you have a potato that feeds one person and five hungry people they will bid on that potato and the price goes up, but if that one potato can be magically divided to feed as many people as you want it no longer has the properties or scarcity of one potato, it has the same property and scarcity of a whole field, region of potato's which is a good thing for the people but not for the farmer, the potato is no longer scarce even though you only have one.

In ancient times people would cut the edges of gold coins to debase the currancy, it was called clipping, but the physical reality of a coin limits how much smaller it can be made before it ceases to exist effectively, bitcoin doesnt have that limit, it can always be divided up, because of that it is effectivelt the same as printing as much as you like, it doesnt matter how much a coin's value goes up if you can just use smaller and smaller portions, it is effectively no different from fiat inflation.

I think the analogy breaks down if the potato is magically divided to feed as many people as you want. The potato is finite. If it magically feeds multiple people then you are inflating the size of the potato.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by karl262

Bitcoin isn't infinitely divisible, it only goes to about 8 decimal points. I think the price will stabilize once all the bitcoins have been mined and the miners themselves are then paid from transaction fees alone. 18.95 million currently mined out of a hard limit of 21 million.

Seems like something easily taken care of by one line of code, an alternate denominator, like mBTC, that can increase the divisibility, or a fork that multiplies amounts.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Seems like something easily taken care of by one line of code, an alternate denominator, like mBTC, that can increase the divisibility, or a fork that multiplies amounts.

Your not suggesting that without Government regulation bitcoin could just turn into a vast scam to fleece millennial rubes?? why the very suggestion is offensive sir!!

[karl262]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Seems like something easily taken care of by one line of code, an alternate denominator, like mBTC, that can increase the divisibility, or a fork that multiplies amounts.

Incorrect.

mBTC or any other similar erc20 tokens that peg themselves to some value relative to btc do not increase the divisibility of btc.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by karl262

Incorrect.

mBTC or any other similar erc20 tokens that peg themselves to some value relative to btc do not increase the divisibility of btc.

The thing is though there is finite amount of utility being done in the world. So regardless of if you print dollars, mine gold, or create new coins you are at some point constrained by the utility of the world.

So adding more currencies into the crypto space dilutes the value of bitcoin in the same way all precious metals are linked in value through varying multiples.

So the bitcoin supply being limited matters only so far as alt-coins are trusted.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by karl262

Incorrect.

mBTC or any other similar erc20 tokens that peg themselves to some value relative to btc do not increase the divisibility of btc.

Yet, and I also said like. It could easily be modified to do so.

[Roof-Daddy]

For those noting the ridiculously high fees and long transaction times for trading CC's, there is apparently a new block chain and DEX launching soon that's a copy of Etherium, but it's supposedly only going to cost pennies in "gas fees" and takes mere seconds for transactions to go through.

It's called Pulse Chain and Pulse-X and it's supposed to launch in the next month or two. Might be something to do your research on if you're a seasoned CC investor or interested in getting into it at all.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Yet, and I also said like. It could easily be modified to do so.

nope.

https://river.com/learn/can-bitcoins...0its%20supply.

Bitcoin Governance
Speculation that Bitcoin’s hard cap could change is rooted in two deeper misunderstandings about Bitcoin as a distributed, consensus-based network. Firstly, there is not one, but dozens or hundreds of versions of the Bitcoin source code. Every node in the Bitcoin network runs independent software that will reject any invalid blocks.

While many nodes run the latest version of Bitcoin Core, a significant number of nodes continue to run older versions and different implementations. Thus, while Bitcoin Core’s source code can be changed trivially, it is far more difficult to convince tens of thousands of nodes to adopt these changes.

[bootsnixon]

KPMG purchases BTC and ETH.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...851778842.html

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by karl262

nope.

https://river.com/learn/can-bitcoins...0its%20supply.

Nope is not the correct answer to the divisibility discussion. You posted a link regarding the 21 million mine cap.

Changes to BTC were made under Taproot, by consensus of miners. Any change that would benefit holders or earners would be easily adopted in the future. If BTC is even on anyone’s radar still.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by bootsnixon

KPMG purchases BTC and ETH.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...851778842.html

OMG didn't they read CP!

peak bubble $1300 obviously

[karl262]

Originally Posted by GGG

The thing is though there is finite amount of utility being done in the world. So regardless of if you print dollars, mine gold, or create new coins you are at some point constrained by the utility of the world.

So adding more currencies into the crypto space dilutes the value of bitcoin in the same way all precious metals are linked in value through varying multiples.

So the bitcoin supply being limited matters only so far as alt-coins are trusted.

I don't think I'm understanding the first part. Are you saying the value of bitcoin is limited by what people and/or whole societal economies are willing and able to pay for it among all the other available stores of value?

The second part about how adding more cryptos to the space dilutes the value of bitcoin, in some ways this is true and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe the new crypto has some neat innovative utility that uses blockchain ideas to solve a problem or make something better. Maybe the new crypto is a ridiculous rug pull and if that's the case, hopefully it fails miserably. Using your precious metals analogy where all metals can be valued by its worth in gold, if I just invented a new precious metal and said it's value is 1 GGG Metal = 10 Gold or whatever, it wont effect the price of gold at all. The market will decide if GGG Metal is any good and value it appropriately while the big institutional money stays away from this new metal for years, if ever.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Nope is not the correct answer to the divisibility discussion. You posted a link regarding the 21 million mine cap.



Changes to BTC were made under Taproot, by consensus of miners. Any change that would benefit holders or earners would be easily adopted in the future. If BTC is even on anyone’s radar still.

I wasn't responding to the divisibility of bitcoin but to the assumed ease of changing the code to increase the hard cap of 21 million.

For that, nope is the correct answer.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

For those noting the ridiculously high fees and long transaction times for trading CC's, there is apparently a new block chain and DEX launching soon that's a copy of Etherium, but it's supposedly only going to cost pennies in "gas fees" and takes mere seconds for transactions to go through.

It's called Pulse Chain and Pulse-X and it's supposed to launch in the next month or two. Might be something to do your research on if you're a seasoned CC investor or interested in getting into it at all.

A colleague of mine at work got in on this early as a long shot gamble move.
It was pre legally being able to invest, so he had to "sacrifice" other coins to them and then got back some Pulse a day or two later.
Was a strange process but he's gambling on it with some money he can afford to lose.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by karl262

I wasn't responding to the divisibility of bitcoin but to the assumed ease of changing the code to increase the hard cap of 21 million.

For that, nope is the correct answer.

But why? The entire conversation was about divisibility, and then you quoted my response to your previous response.

The hard cap of 21 million doesn't really mean much if you can just adjust how it can be divided is the point. Either way, it doesn't really matter because there are already couple hundred thousand satoshis for every person on earth.