Canada's University System

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Why do universities need more students than they did in the past? By reducing enrolment through higher standards, wouldn’t they also reduce costs?

Have you seen how much University Profs get paid?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Locke

Have you seen how much University Profs get paid?

It's actually bloated administrative function and faculty representation. If they would reduce the involvement of faculty to only that related to their specific department, it would reduce costs by a lot. The cost of senates and representation in operational concerns is crazy. Also, stop erecting buildings that are are not dedicated to the delivery of classes. There's a ton of spending on campuses that doesn't need to be there. Focus on delivery of classes and cut out the fluff.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It's actually bloated administrative function and faculty representation. If they would reduce the involvement of faculty to only that related to their specific department, it would reduce costs by a lot. The cost of senates and representation in operational concerns is crazy. Also, stop erecting buildings that are are not dedicated to the delivery of classes. There's a ton of spending on campuses that doesn't need to be there. Focus on delivery of classes and cut out the fluff.

You sound like a Conservative telling people that there is wasteful Government spending that can be cut.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Why do universities need more students than they did in the past? By reducing enrolment through higher standards, wouldn’t they also reduce costs?

I don't know if the need is material or spiritual, but the model has changed as such to make the student's impression the most important thing. Which is not altogether negative, it just makes being a hard ass with your grading more difficult, because the student feed back forms will say that you are an awful professor with un realistic expectations. The admin doesn't read this as "good our school will be more prestigious because it is more difficult" they read it as when word gets out on the internet about this enrollment in this class is going to suffer, we should intervein.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Locke

Have you seen how much University Profs get paid?

Which is why "teaching universities" hire heaps of sessional staff and refuse to put anyone on tenure track.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Which is why "teaching universities" hire heaps of sessional staff and refuse to put anyone on tenure track.

Frankly, I think there are too many Professors who are just students with experience.

Going through University and having someone 'teach' you who has never held an industry job in their lives?

Just Undergrad, Grad, Masters, Doctorate.....now Professor?

The dude pumping my gas has more life experience than that person.

And that person's 'experience' is pretty much only what they've been told by others.

[Lanny_McDonald]

^^^ I agree with this to a point. There are plenty of professors who could use some time in industry to get their feet wet, but there are many disciplines where that is not possible. Those that come from a technical discipline are expected to have expertise or continue their research to be on the leading edge of industry developments. So yes, professors should have industry experience, but that experience can come differently than you expect. There are many good instructors who have plenty of industry experience and are actually in demand for consulting gigs to improve how businesses do things. Whether this understanding has come from working in industry or from practical research, the reality is they do bring that understanding to the table.

I also think you are completely missing the fact that most people who end up teaching are not like you suggest. Most people in academia are not the professional student type. Most have completed their undergrad and got a job, then completed their masters at a later date, and the PhD even later after that. It is strange to run into someone who has completed undergrad-masters-doctorate in succession. Yes, they do exist, but I have not had opportunity to run into many of these unicorns. Most people, even those with proclivity for education, want to get their lives going as quickly as possible, and try to get out into the workforce as quickly as possible.

I did chuckle at the "life experience" example of the guy pumping your gas. You think that people who go to school are sequestered into this academic bubble where they do nothing but study and sleep in a carrel? People who go to school also have jobs. They also have relationships. They do plenty of learning outside of their academic endeavors. To me, this is yet another example of people not having a clue about our education systems or the people that work their way through the system. People speak from their perspective, and the degree they completed (usually not a terminal degree), as being the pinnacle and only true example of education, not having any idea of what it takes in other disciplines or what people in those disciplines do to achieve their terminal degrees. People need better insight and "life experience" to understand the higher education system, and not just rely upon what they are told by others who have not experienced it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

^^^ I agree with this to a point. There are plenty of professors who could use some time in industry to get their feet wet, but there are many disciplines where that is not possible. Those that come from a technical discipline are expected to have expertise or continue their research to be on the leading edge of industry developments. So yes, professors should have industry experience, but that experience can come differently than you expect. There are many good instructors who have plenty of industry experience and are actually in demand for consulting gigs to improve how businesses do things. Whether this understanding has come from working in industry or from practical research, the reality is they do bring that understanding to the table.

I also think you are completely missing the fact that most people who end up teaching are not like you suggest. Most people in academia are not the professional student type. Most have completed their undergrad and got a job, then completed their masters at a later date, and the PhD even later after that. It is strange to run into someone who has completed undergrad-masters-doctorate in succession. Yes, they do exist, but I have not had opportunity to run into many of these unicorns. Most people, even those with proclivity for education, want to get their lives going as quickly as possible, and try to get out into the workforce as quickly as possible.

I did chuckle at the "life experience" example of the guy pumping your gas. You think that people who go to school are sequestered into this academic bubble where they do nothing but study and sleep in a carrel? People who go to school also have jobs. They also have relationships. They do plenty of learning outside of their academic endeavors. To me, this is yet another example of people not having a clue about our education systems or the people that work their way through the system. People speak from their perspective, and the degree they completed (usually not a terminal degree), as being the pinnacle and only true example of education, not having any idea of what it takes in other disciplines or what people in those disciplines do to achieve their terminal degrees. People need better insight and "life experience" to understand the higher education system, and not just rely upon what they are told by others who have not experienced it.

You and I obviously have very different experiences.

Sure, not all 'Ivory Tower Academics' are like that. But there is a good chunk!

I know someone who is now a Doctor (PhD not MD, not in forests...thats MINE!) but he has never held a regular job. He got good grades and scholarships.

And that was his path. Undergrad all the way to Doctorate without so much as setting one pinky toe in the real world.

You're right though, he did have a relationship. With another student doing the exact same thing. And he talked about it...to his Professor.

Academia is probably more incestuous than the Ozarks.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Locke

You and I obviously have very different experiences.

Sure, not all 'Ivory Tower Academics' are like that. But there is a good chunk!

I know someone who is now a Doctor (PhD not MD, not in forests...thats MINE!) but he has never held a regular job. He got good grades and scholarships.

And that was his path. Undergrad all the way to Doctorate without so much as setting one pinky toe in the real world.

You're right though, he did have a relationship. With another student doing the exact same thing. And he talked about it...to his Professor.

Academia is probably more incestuous than the Ozarks.

You're right, we do have very different experiences. Full disclosure. I have a PhD. I have been an executive officer in one of the largest higher education institutions in the country. I have taught at one of the top five public universities in the country, and have been in the guts of higher education in the United States, allowing me to gain insight into what road a lot of people took to their terminal degree. So yes, very different experiences and very different insight.

I do appreciate your story about your acquaintance. I've run into those as well, and they are as big a ######bag as you would expect. Self absorbed and stuck in their little world, which is confined to their books and subject matter. They did not have opportunity to wade in the world and gain the experience you think all instructors should have (and they should). But these people are such a small minority of the people you are going to run across in a college or university.

Most instructors/professors are there because they want to share what they know. They are there because they are experts in their fields and want to help create the next generation of experts. Even though there is a lot more money in the private sector, and I mean a lot more for someone with credentials and expertise like some of these people have, they stay in academia for one reason only - there is an endorphin rush you get from helping a student have their a-ha moment, and understand something complex, that is second to none. Helping someone better themselves by changing perspective or expanding their knowledge in an area is what it's about. There is nothing better than standing on the stage during convocation, shaking the hand of each graduate, and seeing the pride and hope in those faces. It is almost priceless and something that keeps people serving in higher education, even though it is an industry with more warts than one of dissentowner's frogs. So don't discount and don't disparage the whole profession because of a few doofs. There are mostly good people in higher ed, and they got there the right way, not how you suggest.

[bizaro86]

Apparently the US has started publishing fully loaded costs of degrees and the salary grads who got student aid have earned 2 years later.

The article below is paywalled - the quote is the pre-paywall summary.

Will that college degree pay off? A look at the numbers

https://www.washingtonpost.com/educa...e-value-major/

A bachelor’s degree in anthropology from Ithaca College costs $132,656, on average, and two years later, graduates are earning $19,227. A philosophy degree from Oberlin costs $142,220 and graduates two years later make $18,154, on average. At Syracuse, a bachelor’s degree in studio and fine arts costs $137,888; two years later students who got one are earning an average of $17,624.

[Locke]

University Education 101: Cost Benefit Analysis.

[undercoverbrother]

You don't earn good money with a Philosophy degree..........

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Apparently the US has started publishing fully loaded costs of degrees and the salary grads who got student aid have earned 2 years later.

The article below is paywalled - the quote is the pre-paywall summary.

JFC. Media literacy should be an absolute requirement for all levels of education.

This article is based on a report from the Texas Public Policy Foundation, a conservative think tank who supports educational reform through - wait for it - school vouchers. TPPF is also front and center for climate change denial. They are heavily funded by Chevron, Exxon, and Koch. Influential "thinkers" from this group include Ted Cruz. The entire article is based on a specious report from an interest known for creative math and bending the truth.

https://www.texasobserver.org/money-...cy-foundation/

Another major problem in politics these days is disinformation generated by ideologically driven think tanks that lazy journalists accept without fact checking or looking for possible biases in the data analysis. This article is a perfect example of that.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

JFC. Media literacy should be an absolute requirement for all levels of education.

This article is based on a report from the Texas Public Policy Foundation, a conservative think tank who supports educational reform through - wait for it - school vouchers. TPPF is also front and center for climate change denial. They are heavily funded by Chevron, Exxon, and Koch. Influential "thinkers" from this group include Ted Cruz. The entire article is based on a specious report from an interest known for creative math and bending the truth.

https://www.texasobserver.org/money-...cy-foundation/

Another major problem in politics these days is disinformation generated by ideologically driven think tanks that lazy journalists accept without fact checking or looking for possible biases in the data analysis. This article is a perfect example of that.

I haven't read it - like I said it was paywalled for me. Where do the base numbers come from? Does the government not report that data?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I haven't read it - like I said it was paywalled for me. Where do the base numbers come from? Does the government not report that data?

No, they don't. At least not publicly. This would be survey data they have put together themselves, not from government database. This information is not actually available, because of privacy requirements (FEPRA protected). But it is completely within the sphere of interests like this to take limited survey data and represent it as data from the government, which would be illegal to disclose.

[opendoor]

I believe this US Department of Education site is the source for those numbers:

https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/

You can search by institution and field of study within each institution and it lists average earnings after 2 years. Some of the smaller institutions have tiny sample sizes and all of the data is only based on students who received federal grants/aid, so it's likely not totally accurate.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

...I have a PhD. I have been an executive officer in one of the largest higher education institutions in the country. I have taught at one of the top five public universities in the country, and have been in the guts of higher education in the United States, allowing me to gain insight into what road a lot of people took to their terminal degree....

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

No, they don't. At least not publicly. This would be survey data they have put together themselves, not from government database. This information is not actually available, because of privacy requirements (FEPRA protected). But it is completely within the sphere of interests like this to take limited survey data and represent it as data from the government, which would be illegal to disclose.

Amazing combination of being authoritative and wrong here. Obviously not FEPRA protected as anonymized aggregated data. Plus the fact they do release it. Never let facts get in the way of a good rant about Ted Cruz and the Koch brothers.

I downloaded the full file and its huge, but its all there. The post grad incomes are sliced and diced in the "most recent cohorts all data elements" file. You get mean, median, quartiles, etc.

Edited to add: Not sure about the link opendoor has above (I'm sure it works) but I found the file here: https://data.ed.gov/dataset/college-...e-9ba9411d7967

by clicking "All College Scorecard Data"

[bizaro86]

I'll cheerfully agree that Ted Cruz is not a credible policy source (and I only brought up data, not Ted Cruz's policy), but it seems like Obama should be far enough left to be at least intellectually credible?

This quote is from his plan to reform higher education (that died as universities fought it):

His plan will measure college performance through a new ratings system so students and families have the information to select schools that provide the best value. And after this ratings system is well established, Congress can tie federal student aid to college performance so that students maximize their federal aid at institutions providing the best value. The President’s plan will also take down barriers that stand in the way of competition and innovation, particularly in the use of new technology, and shine a light on the most cutting-edge college practices for providing high value at low costs.

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...etter-bargain-

[bagofpucks]

I know an “acquaintance” going through to become a doctor (real medical doctor) and I am shocked at the requirements, or lack there or, for this stream. They spent 2-3 years upgrading from high school, 6-8 years completing their undergrad and are now in their first year of medical school. There are some special circumstances, but it seems as long as you have time and money there are not a ton of obstacles to becoming a doctor, which I was quite surprised by.