US police kills twice as many people as reported

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think if we looked strictly at public education, the U.S. would probably be much lower, and if you examined the areas of the U.S. with high crime rates, you would probably also find underfunded public schools.

Poking around the data, it’s not clear if that’s the case. Public education funding in places like New York and D.C. is actually quite high. Though disparities might be more evident if we zoom right down to the level of counties.

https://www.businessinsider.com/stat...schools-2020-9

Meanwhile, some states with the lowest educational attainment and spending, like West Virginia and Idaho, have lower than average crime rates.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ls/1079181001/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...the-us-states/

The problem is that public schools don’t seem to be as effective at fixing social distress and dysfunction as we would like.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

The United States of America is a catastrophic #### hole unless you're rich, and then white. This, I think, we can all agree on.

But mostly white.

Cause rich POC get ####ed with on the reg.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Poking around the data, it’s not clear if that’s the case. Public education funding in places like New York and D.C. is actually quite high. Though disparities might be more evident if we zoom right down to the level of counties.

https://www.businessinsider.com/stat...schools-2020-9

Meanwhile, some states with the lowest educational attainment and spending, like West Virginia and Idaho, have lower than average crime rates.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ls/1079181001/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...the-us-states/

The problem is that public schools don’t seem to be as effective at fixing social distress and dysfunction as we would like.

I think what it might come down to is whether these schools have sufficient funding for quality extra-curricular/after-school programs. I'm not going to go searching for it, so feel free to dismiss it, but I do remember seeing studies that correlated these programs with better outcomes for students.

I do agree that it's hard to make an apples to apples comparison because you also have to factor in population sizes into the funding equation.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

The United States of America is a catastrophic #### hole unless you're rich, and then white. This, I think, we can all agree on.

I don't get this. Sure, they have a long list of problems, but I wouldn't stand up on my pedestal as a Canadian and bash other countries when we have some serious problems of our own when it comes to our treatment of minorities and the under priviledged.

Also, the US takes in millions of immigrants each year, and if they would change their visa laws, they could take in even more. Most of those immigrants are not white, though some may have money. I'd imagine not all of them do.

So something doesn't jive here. For a country that you say is inherently racist and apparently hateful towards poor people, there sure is a long list of people trying to get there.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't get this. Sure, they have a long list of problems, but I wouldn't stand up on my pedestal as a Canadian and bash other countries when we have some serious problems of our own when it comes to our treatment of minorities and the under priviledged.

Also, the US takes in millions of immigrants each year, and if they would change their visa laws, they could take in even more. Most of those immigrants are not white, though some may have money. I'd imagine not all of them do.

So something doesn't jive here. For a country that you say is inherently racist and apparently hateful towards poor people, there sure is a long list of people trying to get there.

I'm not saying Canada doesn't have big, big problems. But I do appreciate that I can die with dignity of pretty much anything without incurring massive debt that then gets passed on to my family after I'm gone. That is huge.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't get this. Sure, they have a long list of problems, but I wouldn't stand up on my pedestal as a Canadian and bash other countries when we have some serious problems of our own when it comes to our treatment of minorities and the under priviledged.

Also, the US takes in millions of immigrants each year, and if they would change their visa laws, they could take in even more. Most of those immigrants are not white, though some may have money. I'd imagine not all of them do.

So something doesn't jive here. For a country that you say is inherently racist and apparently hateful towards poor people, there sure is a long list of people trying to get there.

The huge difference between Canada and the US is Canada would happily solve its racial problems in a heart beat, we have a legacy of inequality and social issues we haven't been able to correct but there is a willingness to solve them, the US is more than happy with it's inequality, proud of it frankly.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The huge difference between Canada and the US is Canada would happily solve its racial problems in a heart beat, we have a legacy of inequality and social issues we haven't been able to correct but there is a willingness to solve them, the US is more than happy with it's inequality, proud of it frankly.

You're kidding me right? We've been actively burying the residential school scandal for decades.

The only reason it is even coming up is because the graves are being found.

That is just one of the glaring examples of how we have a deep, cultural problem with mistreating JUST our First Nations people.

I appreciate our health care system as much as anyone, but I'm not going to sit here and bash the US for their crime, gun and death problems when Canadians should be fricking embarrassed by how our governments have treated First Nations people for the last 100 years, and say 'oh but we have better health care.'

[TheIronMaiden]

Likewise, First Nations don't have equitable access to healthcare either.

Read into the foundation of Jordan's principle as just one example.

Jordan's Principle was established by First Nations in response to the death of five-year-old Jordan River Anderson, a child from Norway House Cree Nation who suffered from Carey Fineman Ziter syndrome, a rare muscular disorder that required years of medical treatment in a Winnipeg hospital. After spending the first two years of his life in a hospital, doctors cleared Jordan to live in a family home near the hospital in Winnipeg. However, the federal and provincial governments could not resolve who was financially responsible for the necessary home care. For over two years, the Government of Canada and Manitoba provincial government continued to argue while Jordan remained in the hospital. In 2005, at the age of five, Jordan died in the hospital; he never had the opportunity to live in a family home.

In 2005, the First Nations Child & Family Caring Society released the Wene: We are Coming to the Light of Day report. Drawing on a team of over twenty researchers, the report provides a holistic and detailed review of the Government of Canada's First Nations child and family services policy and sets out recommendations for improvement. The research found that jurisdictional disputes continue to have significant impacts on the lived experiences of First Nations children, particularly those with disabilities. Among the policy recommendations, the report recommended that Jordan's Principle be adopted by the Government of Canada and provincial/territorial governments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan%27s_Principle

[Mr.Coffee]

Where did Canadians' humility go?

[Macman]

I would also think that an armed public in the US would be a contributing factor as to why police may shoot first.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Macman

I would also think that an armed public in the US would be a contributing factor as to why police may shoot first.

Well yeah. When half the people you pull over have a handgun in their glove compartment, it dramatically changes the dynamics of contentious interactions with the public.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Where did Canadians' humility go?

It seems it's increasingly pushed aside since Bowling for Columbine. At least that's when I started to notice a national snobbery when it comes to our southern neighbors.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Yamer

It seems it's increasingly pushed aside since Bowling for Columbine. At least that's when I started to notice a national snobbery when it comes to our southern neighbors.

We've always know the US is effed but the advent of cell phone cameras and social media has meant we know the full extent of the US's numptyhood

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The huge difference between Canada and the US is Canada would happily solve its racial problems in a heart beat, we have a legacy of inequality and social issues we haven't been able to correct but there is a willingness to solve them, the US is more than happy with it's inequality, proud of it frankly.

I don't think you can say a country as a whole is happy or proud of something like that, just because they have a problem.

[Azure]

Weird, I know a lot of Americans (both sides of the aisle), that are quite happy & successful.

If anything social media has duped people into thinking 2% of what you see if 100% of the truth.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

I don't think you can say a country as a whole is happy or proud of something like that, just because they have a problem.

Oh I dont mean all Americans are happy with things, just that the country as a whole is from a practical perspective.
One party actively supports and encourages racism and violence against minorities while the other party does nothing about it.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Azure

You're kidding me right? We've been actively burying the residential school scandal for decades.

The only reason it is even coming up is because the graves are being found.

That is just one of the glaring examples of how we have a deep, cultural problem with mistreating JUST our First Nations people.

I appreciate our health care system as much as anyone, but I'm not going to sit here and bash the US for their crime, gun and death problems when Canadians should be fricking embarrassed by how our governments have treated First Nations people for the last 100 years, and say 'oh but we have better health care.'

Here's the difference though, all over Canada all politicians of all stripes are commenting on this terrible legacy, schools and streets are being renamed as fast as they can get the signs painted with not so much as a complaint, the only real debate in Canada about our treatment of the native population is how exactly do we make things better, the policies may be rubbish, they may not work but as long as I have lived in Canada (since the 80's) no one has ever argued that Canada didnt have some kind of debt or obligation to our native population, the debate has been about scale, method and cost, not the actual need.

In the US they are demonstrating to keep up statues of Nathen Bedford Forest, General Lee's statue has been relocated to pride of place in a golf course resort in Florida, not only are they in no way repentant but half the US is actively supportive of the state using violence to keep their minorities down, that half, including the GOP are closer to the Canada of the 1920's in real terms.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Here's the difference though, all over Canada all politicians of all stripes are commenting on this terrible legacy, schools and streets are being renamed as fast as they can get the signs painted with not so much as a complaint, the only real debate in Canada about our treatment of the native population is how exactly do we make things better, the policies may be rubbish, they may not work but as long as I have lived in Canada (since the 80's) no one has ever argued that Canada didnt have some kind of debt or obligation to our native population, the debate has been about scale, method and cost, not the actual need.

In the US they are demonstrating to keep up statues of Nathen Bedford Forest, General Lee's statue has been relocated to pride of place in a golf course resort in Florida, not only are they in no way repentant but half the US is actively supportive of the state using violence to keep their minorities down, that half, including the GOP are closer to the Canada of the 1920's in real terms.

Imo the main difference is that people in the USA are just more outspoken, particularly conservatives. Racism in Canada is more subtle but no less damaging.

The USA was also way ahead of Canada in terms of political recognition. Most major cities have streets named after important black figures. MLK day has been around since 1986. If anything Canada is at stage one. As for figures like general Lee, it's not too dissimilar than us having all sorts of things dedicated to John A. McDonald, one of the men responsible for among other things executing Louis Riel based on an obscure UK treason law.

I don't think the USA is any more racist, just their problems are different. The USA has large ghettoized populations mixed in their city centres. Canada has kept many impoverished people on reserves, without access to basic infrastructure. So the issue in Canada is more easily ignored. Incarceration rates for indigenous people in Canada are similar to poorly treated minority groups in the USA.

As others have stated gun control is a major difference maker. There have been multiple high profile incidents of police killing indigenous people. Changing the dynamic by allowing every citizen access to hand guns would certainly result in the many indigenous people who get arrested every day being at further risk if police gun violence.

[blankall]

To add a few things to my previous post, Canada still had segregated schools for black students up until 1983. If Canada had been left with a legacy of slavery, I really don't see us dealing with it all that well. If anything, our likely solution would have been to move impoverished minority groups further out of our population centres and pretend the problem didn't exist.

[81MC]

Nova Scotia is a poor representation of ‘Canada’ in this regard. It was undoubtedly the most segregated, and while it’s technically true that ‘Canada’ still has a segregated school up to 1983, it’s worth noting that only one other province had segregated school - Ontario, and that stopped in 1965.

It doesn’t make any of that okay, but one school is not plural and in a place with 3% of the population isn’t a good representation of what was actually happening across Canada.