Coronavirus All Purpose Thread: The unnecessary Dumb Dumb 4th wave

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So provinces headed by non-Conservatives don’t face capacity shortfalls?

This isn’t a partisan or provincial issue. It’s a crisis across the country, regardless of governing party, and it has been decades in the making. It’s rooted in demographics, and stark, systemic inadequacies that governments and voters don’t want to face.

If you don't think it's Conservative governments who have been cutting taxes and saying we then can't afford to pay for services so they cut those, too, over decades, I don't really know what to say. That's just reality.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I'm all ears/eyes, what two tier system do you propose?

Germany, Norway, Sweden, France, the Netherlands, Denmark, Switzerland and a bunch of other European countries have mixed public and private systems, with universal public health care supplemented by private insurance and delivery. And those countries rank higher than Canada in most health care system measurables.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I'm all ears/eyes, what two tier system do you propose?

Almost any of the Scandinavian countries.

There are lots of countries where we could get ideas from on how to improve our system.

Unfortunately each time this is brought up, the idea is met with the ridiculous notion that if we change, we will become like the US. Case in point, you.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If you don't think it's Conservative governments who have been cutting taxes and saying we then can't afford to pay for services so they cut those, too, over decades, I don't really know what to say. That's just reality.

Strange point to argue with Cliff, when he is one of the people in the 'rich people suck' thread that has argued in favor of higher taxes to pay for services.

The problem I have with 'more money' is that we can't even efficiently spend what we have on our system right now. Throwing more money at it without some serious changes (i.e. looking at more effective European systems) is pointless.

Every rise in health care spending is not met with better results, and every cut in spending to 'improve efficiencies' is also not reflective of the actual result. One would think if one government spends more, and the next cuts spending that maybe we ought not to look at throwing more money at it, but changing the way we spend.

Allowing for a two-tier system where public care is guaranteed and even funded by the private side, while at the same time allowing for 10-15% of your population to seek private care (UK does 11%), would it really be so bad? What exactly are we afraid of? Besides the usual 'US boogyman' stupidity?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If you don't think it's Conservative governments who have been cutting taxes and saying we then can't afford to pay for services so they cut those, too, over decades, I don't really know what to say. That's just reality.

Health care spending hasn’t been going anywhere but up for decades.








Canada’s health care spending compared with other OECD countries.

[opendoor]

You can't really compare per capita spending between Europe and Canada, because we have the most expensive health care system in the world right next door which we have to compete with for salaries. Germany can pay nurses $40-50K CAD and Finland can pay doctors $90K CAD a year, so obviously they can get more services for the same money vs. Canada. If we want European level beds per 100K, we're going to have spend far more than they do per capita.

Which is fine if that's what we want to do, but let's at least be honest. The idea that having some private insurance/delivery for 5-10% of the population is going to reap any real system-wide efficiencies and advantages isn't really backed by the evidence. In fact, in some of the countries with private insurance options (like Germany), higher earners opt for it because it's cheaper (it's a flat fee rather than % of income), so it actually brings less money into the system.

[Azure]

I'm all for more VAT to help pay for health care spending if it is met on the other side with some achievable metrics.

Either way, I don't think it really depends what we 'want.' With an ever increasing unhealthy population, we really have no choice on the matter. Unless we are all fine with a non-existent system that we paying billions for and can't use.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Health care spending hasn’t been going anywhere but up for decades.





Canada’s health care spending compared with other OECD countries.

Looking at that last graph, you can see that Canada's % of private healthcare costs is much higher than most. When you look at only the public health costs, suddenly Canada is directly in line with Norway, Iceland, the UK, Sweden at around 8%. The private costs we already pay as part of our current tiered system is what makes Canada so high on that list. So going to a private tier isn't going to alleviate any costing issues, it will actually increase the % of GDP spent on healthcare as an overall system.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Health care spending hasn’t been going anywhere but up for decades.








Canada’s health care spending compared with other OECD countries.

So Canada has spent more on healthcare as the population has nearly doubled in the time frame shown in that graph. The population has gotten older as well. So it's completely possible that the governments have been cutting services, while still spending more. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, but the population of Canada in 1977 was about 23 million people.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

You can't really compare per capita spending between Europe and Canada, because we have the most expensive health care system in the world right next door which we have to compete with for salaries. Germany can pay nurses $40-50K CAD and Finland can pay doctors $90K CAD a year, so obviously they can get more services for the same money vs. Canada. If we want European level beds per 100K, we're going to have spend far more than they do per capita.

That’s a fair argument. But not one we see presented to the public by our government.

“Canada has a chronic health care capacity crisis because it’s very expensive to deliver. And it’s expensive because we have to pay our health care workers at the rates they get paid in the U.S., or they’ll leave to go work in the private system there.”

Instead, we get the myth that public health care spending is being relentlessly cut.

Canadians have a huge blind spot about health care, and can’t seem to talk honestly and rationally about it. It’s the third rail of Canadian politics.

[Azure]

I honestly hope people prepare themselves for lack of care.

I feel for those that have family members that will require surgery or extended hospital time over the next 5 years, because our system is going to get absolutely brutalized.

The perfect storm. Years of burying our head in the sand when it came to health care improvements, and now a pandemic to bring it all down.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

That’s a fair argument. But not one we see presented to the public by our government.

“Canada has a chronic health care capacity crisis because it’s very expensive to deliver. And it’s expensive because we have to pay our health care workers at the rates they get paid in the U.S., or they’ll leave to go work in the private system there.”

Instead, we get the myth that public health care spending is being relentlessly cut.

Canadians have a huge blind spot about health care, and can’t seem to talk honestly and rationally about it. It’s the third rail of Canadian politics.

Every year since 2010 Alberta has spent less money per person on healthcare adjusted for inflation.

It's crept back up slightly in the last few years, but it's still below 2010. Again an increasing and aging population can mean more spending while still cutting services.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...tory-1.5289747

Even that isn't necessarily the case.

https://kimsiever.ca/2020/03/06/albe...care-spending/

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

That’s a fair argument. But not one we see presented to the public by our government.

“Canada has a chronic health care capacity crisis because it’s very expensive to deliver. And it’s expensive because we have to pay our health care workers at the rates they get paid in the U.S., or they’ll leave to go work in the private system there.”

Instead, we get the myth that public health care spending is being relentlessly cut.

Canadians have a huge blind spot about health care, and can’t seem to talk honestly and rationally about it. It’s the third rail of Canadian politics.

I have a hard time believing that competing with high American salaries are the reason we can't get more effective and efficient health care.

I would love to see some data on that.

From 2010.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

Strange point to argue with Cliff, when he is one of the people in the 'rich people suck' thread that has argued in favor of higher taxes to pay for services.

The problem I have with 'more money' is that we can't even efficiently spend what we have on our system right now. Throwing more money at it without some serious changes (i.e. looking at more effective European systems) is pointless.

Every rise in health care spending is not met with better results, and every cut in spending to 'improve efficiencies' is also not reflective of the actual result. One would think if one government spends more, and the next cuts spending that maybe we ought not to look at throwing more money at it, but changing the way we spend.

Allowing for a two-tier system where public care is guaranteed and even funded by the private side, while at the same time allowing for 10-15% of your population to seek private care (UK does 11%), would it really be so bad? What exactly are we afraid of? Besides the usual 'US boogyman' stupidity?

We have to throw money at it because we've made decades of stupid decisions, like under funding senior care, so instead of seniors having appropriate places to go, they end up in a hospital bed, that means someone get stuck in the ICU for longer, taking up a $2000 a day bed instead of a regualr one. That's one small example, but things like short staffing so we pay out overtime is also an issue.

Not having a nation pharmacare plan so every province (and health board) is negotiating their own drug deals. I don't see Conservatives supporting that idea, though. "Too much money!"

It's not just about throwing money, it's about designing an entire system of healthcare that works more effectively. But that's impossible to do when governments continue to reduce tax income.

[Azure]

Hey I agree completely. I just don't like the idea of attaching money to something without metrics to judge the effectiveness.

If we fund a national pharma plan (which I agree with), we do it on the basis on drug prices are expected to go down 5% over x years. There has to be a ROI of sorts on the money we spend, which will add accountability.

If there is an overhaul, there need to be metrics that can be achieved. Wait times, better pre care, post care, emergency room access, etc.

The problem is we get governments who bring in some fancy corporate firm to present a $10 million dollar plan that will fix all those things and save us millions year. Plan gets implemented, nothing gets fixed and nobody is accountable to the failure. New government comes, increases spending to make up the shortfall plus implement their own fancy plan, 5 years later we are spending record amounts on health care, but everything about the system still sucks. It is lunacy both ways. I don't expect government to operate like a company (show profit, etc), but they should be expected to achieve certain results with the billions they are charged with spending.

Don't get me started on senior care. I thought COVID would have brought to light how we treat our senior citizens (when they died), but we are now back to nobody giving a ####.

[Firebot]

https://globalnews.ca/news/8286078/c...ederal-travel/

A federal standardized vaccination passport was badly needed and great to see it happen.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1451192894304370690

[Fuzz]

Awesome, does that mean there will be one app that works across Canada for verifying?

[Firebot]

Yes it will be standardized and tamper proof. Avoids all the provincial differences that was present and a question mark.

“I’m happy to confirm that all provinces and territories have confirmed that they will be moving forward with a standardized national proof of vaccination,” Trudeau said, speaking to reporters.

[peter12]

The lengths some people will go to settle for the status quo always startles me.

[opendoor]

Sounds like the federal proof of vaccination uses the same SMART standard that the other QR codes in Canada are using, so it's mostly just a matter of having the correct provincial public keys in the reader app and they should all be interchangeable.