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Old 10-20-2021, 10:28 AM   #4081
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Perhaps a two-tier system is needed. Canada is well known for long wait times on everything. Throwing more money at these issues has not helped.



https://financialpost.com/opinion/gw...te-health-care

Except it's based on a ranking by the Frazer institute, an organization looking to push private healthcare. The United States spends significantly more money per patient than Canada, and in a newer ranking, were ranked lower than Canada.

As for hospital beds per person, Canada is above Sweden, in line with the UK, Denmark, Iceland and New Zealand. The united states has 0.3 more beds per person, so really not that different.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/...l-bed-density/

Canada's healthcare obviously has it's issues, but the Fraser institute is incredibly biased.

In a fairly new report, the United states ranked dead last among wealthy countries in healthcare, it wasn't even close. Canada was second last, but at least they weren't way behind. Improvements are needed, no question.

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub...lecting-poorly

Health care spending as a percentage of GDP puts Canada in the middle of the pack, with the United States alone at the top.
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Old 10-20-2021, 10:36 AM   #4082
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Except it's based on a ranking by the Frazer institute, an organization looking to push private healthcare. The United States spends significantly more money per patient than Canada, and in a newer ranking, were ranked lower than Canada.

As for hospital beds per person, Canada is above Sweden, in line with the UK, Denmark, Iceland and New Zealand. The united states has 0.3 more beds per person, so really not that different.


https://www.statista.com/statistics/...l-bed-density/

Canada's healthcare obviously has it's issues, but the Fraser institute is incredibly biased.

In a fairly new report, the United states ranked dead last among wealthy countries in healthcare, it wasn't even close. Canada was second last, but at least they weren't way behind. Improvements are needed, no question.

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub...lecting-poorly

Health care spending as a percentage of GDP puts Canada in the middle of the pack, with the United States alone at the top.
Any time you read an article that references a Frasier Institute study, your default position should be that the facts are wrong, and wrong in a way that reflects their agenda. Honestly their reports all belong in the trash, and do a disservice to Canadians through misinformation. I'm kind of amazed people still don't know this.
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Old 10-20-2021, 10:47 AM   #4083
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Yet another opinion piece presented as news. Unfortunate, really.
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Old 10-20-2021, 11:17 AM   #4084
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Yet another opinion piece presented as news. Unfortunate, really.
If anything could so aptly describe life in 2021.

The internet as a whole has evolved into YouNews, where you can say anything and the facts are seldom checked.
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Old 10-20-2021, 12:04 PM   #4085
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If anything could so aptly describe life in 2021.

The internet as a whole has evolved into YouNews, where you can say anything and the facts are seldom checked.
I'm just speaking "my truth"
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Old 10-20-2021, 12:27 PM   #4086
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I'm just speaking "my truth"
And doing your own ďresearchĒ.
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Old 10-20-2021, 12:37 PM   #4087
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I actually find this viewpoint a bit strange to be honest.

Multiple provinces were able to protect hospitals without massive mandates just with restrictions to high risk areas.

There is no reason we need to mandate repeat booster shots when we already know what will work.

Especially once rapid testing is widely available.

In fact, we already know vaccines are not stopping someone from getting COVID and spreading it, so we absolutely need rapid testing to protect high risk areas such as hospitals, care homes, etc. Vaccines alone are not going to protect our most vulnerable citizens.
Which provinces didnít implement vaccine passport systems and were able to effectively manage Covid? Perhaps that isnít what you meant by mandate.

My plan would be restrictions based on vaccination status /booster status or privately paid rapid testing and mandatory masking when Covid cases are above 50/100k per week would be very reasonable for the near future.
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Old 10-20-2021, 12:42 PM   #4088
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Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
Any time you read an article that references a Frasier Institute study, your default position should be that the facts are wrong, and wrong in a way that reflects their agenda. Honestly their reports all belong in the trash, and do a disservice to Canadians through misinformation. I'm kind of amazed people still don't know this.
Except the facts aren't wrong, and the latching onto the Fraser Institute study (who I admit has an agenda) just to discredit the results isn't right either when other studies have said the same thing, and Canada has had the overall reputation for many, many years of not having a very efficient health care system in terms of wait times, & general care.

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Long wait times have become a defining characteristic of the Canadian health care system. In 2016, the Commonwealth Fund ranked Canada last among 11 countries surveyed on wait times for specialist care.1 Roughly one-fifth of Canadians report being negatively affected by wait times, citing experiences of stress, anxiety, pain, lost income, delays in diagnosis and treatment, duplications of tests, and deterioration in their conditions.2Ė4 In general, patients consider 3 months to be the maximum acceptable wait time for a specialist appointment.5Ė8

Although Canada has made considerable investments in its effort to address excessive wait times,9,10 it has been argued that long wait times are the necessary price for its universal, publicly funded health care system.11 Yet, Canada has been shown to spend more on health care than most high-income Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries with universal health care systems,12 and the Commonwealth Fundís survey results show that other universal health care systems (eg, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany, Australia, and France) have much shorter wait times than Canada does.1 What these countries do differently than Canada is they allow the private sector to provide core health care insurance and services, require patients to share in the cost of treatment, and fund hospitals based on activity (rather than the global budgets that are the norm in Canada).13
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7292524/

I don't want to turn this into a Canadian health care debate, but with rising rates of obesity, diabetes, heart disease and many other issues, we need to find a way to provide better care or reverse some of those issues, otherwise we will have a maxed out and crowded health care system basically forever.

Here in Manitoba it is almost impossible to find even a family doctor, and things have definitely gotten worse the past 5 years in that regard. Emergency rooms have been closed (great job PCs), wait times for basically anything are ridiculous, and if you need any kind of emergency care, you are waiting many hours. Those are great signs of an overcrowded system, and if we want to live with something like COVID, being overcrowded before it began is a sure sign for concern.

And yes, a lot can be blamed on the PCs and their 'find efficiencies stupidity', but there were similar problems before they did that.
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Old 10-20-2021, 12:47 PM   #4089
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So what is your concern?

That we should spend billions on health care beds so we don't have have to have vaccine mandates?

Or we should privatize health care so we don't have vaccine mandates?
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Old 10-20-2021, 12:49 PM   #4090
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Which provinces didnít implement vaccine passport systems and were able to effectively manage Covid? Perhaps that isnít what you meant by mandate.

My plan would be restrictions based on vaccination status /booster status or privately paid rapid testing and mandatory masking when Covid cases are above 50/100k per week would be very reasonable for the near future.
Manitoba implemented vaccine passports for certain recreational activities only, such as sporting events & concerts which could be seen as high risk activities as well. I have no issue with that. Those events should be carefully monitored.

My issue is with the infinite mandate of booster shots when government health bodies are already being hesitant about the risk / reward when it comes to the boosters.

Also, while being vaccinated absolutely 100% helps you not end up in hospital or ICU, it doesn't mean you won't spread it, so for front line workers that are vaccinated, there may be concerns over spread if rapid testing isn't available. In other words if you work in the ICU, vaccination status alone isn't good enough to protect the patients. Same thing with care homes, hospitals in general, etc.

I tend to agree with you though, as long as the cases stay down, restrictions shouldn't be an issue. But we need to have proper context on the cases as well. 100k cases per week where 90% of people are vaccinated is different from 50k where 50% of people are vaccinated.
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Old 10-20-2021, 12:54 PM   #4091
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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Manitoba implemented vaccine passports for certain recreational activities only, such as sporting events & concerts which could be seen as high risk activities as well. I have no issue with that. Those events should be carefully monitored.

My issue is with the infinite mandate of booster shots when government health bodies are already being hesitant about the risk / reward when it comes to the boosters.

Also, while being vaccinated absolutely 100% helps you not end up in hospital or ICU, it doesn't mean you won't spread it, so for front line workers that are vaccinated, there may be concerns over spread if rapid testing isn't available. In other words if you work in the ICU, vaccination status alone isn't good enough to protect the patients. Same thing with care homes, hospitals in general, etc.

I tend to agree with you though, as long as the cases stay down, restrictions shouldn't be an issue. But we need to have proper context on the cases as well. 100k cases per week where 90% of people are vaccinated is different from 50k where 50% of people are vaccinated.
Why worry about something that hasn't happened? They aren't going to mandate them for the fun of it.
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Old 10-20-2021, 01:04 PM   #4092
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So what is your concern?

That we should spend billions on health care beds so we don't have have to have vaccine mandates?

Or we should privatize health care so we don't have vaccine mandates?
My concern is that before it all began our health care system was already being stretched.

Now we have an insane backlog in procedures, burnt out health care workers, lack of resources, and probably funding cuts once provinces realize that they need to cut back on spending.

I firmly believe in the effectiveness in vaccination, but I am concerned that our general policy, which does include vaccination rates (almost 90%) isn't enough to live with COVID going into the future. Especially if we are seeing concerns from government health bodies over the repeat booster shots.
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Old 10-20-2021, 01:38 PM   #4093
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So what is your concern?

That we should spend billions on health care beds so we don't have have to have vaccine mandates?

Or we should privatize health care so we don't have vaccine mandates?
Can we be concerned about the state of our health care system even if we support vaccine mandates?

To add to Azure's list we also have an aging population. Something has to give. There was a guy on the radio yesterday talking about a 5th wave with increased restrictions across Canada despite having fairly robust vaccination numbers. We've been focusing our attention on vaccines, rightfully so, but at what point do we also address the second half of the equation which is a healthcare system already running near capacity?
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Old 10-20-2021, 01:52 PM   #4094
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Hrmm, a Gwyn Morgan opinion piece in the Financial Post referencing a Frasier Institute study. Hold on, I need to get into my salt mining clothes.


Many of our healthcare issues can be directly tied back to moronic decisions made by Conservative governments. Yet here they are, banging the same tired drum comparing us to the US, who spends far more than us on healthcare. But he doesn't mention that, of course. Rolls out the same tired arguments about needing more private healthcare. Yawn.
So provinces headed by non-Conservatives donít face capacity shortfalls?

This isnít a partisan or provincial issue. Itís a crisis across the country, regardless of governing party, and it has been decades in the making. Itís rooted in demographics, and stark, systemic inadequacies that governments and voters donít want to face.
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Old 10-20-2021, 01:56 PM   #4095
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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Perhaps a two-tier system is needed. Canada is well known for long wait times on everything. Throwing more money at these issues has not helped.



https://financialpost.com/opinion/gw...te-health-care
People without great insurance in the US are also getting on average a $22,000 bill for a covid hospital stay, what looks like the US is more prepared might not look so rosy if most of the un-insured went to the hospital when sick, before covid it's been estimated over 45,000 people die at home in the US every year because they can't afford healthcare insurance, No stats yet but Harvard is doing a study now but early estimates according to their podcast are there could be upwards of another 200,000 covid deaths of people that died at home because the couldn't afford to go to the hospital.

I don't think there's even a debate that the US healthcare system only works for the rich or fully insured, Is this the two-tier system you want?
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Old 10-20-2021, 01:56 PM   #4096
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There was previously a lot of discussion around denying health care to anti vaxxers and I just saw something interesting out of BC that is somewhat related. BC is going to stop paying for care for new residents who are not yet eligible for the provincial healthcare coverage as of Nov 1. Basically anyone who moves to BC is not eligible for provincial coverage until 2 full calendar months have passed since their arrival. The waiting period for coverage was waved when the pandemic started but has now been reinstated. That means that anyone not eligible for coverage will have to pay for service including any Covid related care. I'm not sure how other provinces handle healthcare for new residents but this news from BC was something that I didn't know existed in Canada.

https://burnabybeacon.com/article/bc...ated-care-msp/
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Old 10-20-2021, 02:02 PM   #4097
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The scary thing is that nobody is talking about solutions to the almost certain reality of anti-bodies not being as strong 6-8 months after vaccination.

Booster shots & booster mandates are going to create more issues. There is absolutely no way we get consistent 70% booster shot rate.

Vaccine mandates work fine while we know the antibodies are there. But what about next year? How will we handle sporting events then? Booster mandate if you want to attend a sporting event? I find a hard time believing that will go over very well.
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Old 10-20-2021, 02:03 PM   #4098
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People without great insurance in the US are also getting on average a $22,000 bill for a covid hospital stay, what looks like the US is more prepared might not look so rosy if most of the un-insured went to the hospital when sick, before covid it's been estimated over 45,000 people die at home in the US every year because they can't afford healthcare insurance, No stats yet but Harvard is doing a study now but early estimates according to their podcast are there could be upwards of another 200,000 covid deaths of people that died at home because the couldn't afford to go to the hospital.

I don't think there's even a debate that the US healthcare system only works for the rich or fully insured, Is this the two-tier system you want?
Didn't take 10 posts and the fear-mongering of two tier system = US health care is here.

I didn't think there's even a debate that the US health care system is NOT the two tier system we even NEED to emulate.

Seriously.
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Old 10-20-2021, 02:09 PM   #4099
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Didn't take 10 posts and the fear-mongering of two tier system = US health care is here.

I didn't think there's even a debate that the US health care system is NOT the two tier system we even NEED to emulate.

Seriously.
I'm all ears/eyes, what two tier system do you propose?
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Old 10-20-2021, 02:50 PM   #4100
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The scary thing is that nobody is talking about solutions to the almost certain reality of anti-bodies not being as strong 6-8 months after vaccination.
They decline after infection as well; that's just the nature of coronavirus antibodies. That's why you can get the cold year after year.

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Booster shots & booster mandates are going to create more issues. There is absolutely no way we get consistent 70% booster shot rate.

Vaccine mandates work fine while we know the antibodies are there. But what about next year? How will we handle sporting events then? Booster mandate if you want to attend a sporting event? I find a hard time believing that will go over very well.
If hospitals aren't overwhelmed due to people with no prior immunity getting infected, then there will be less reason to restrict unvaccinated people (or people without boosters) from non-critical activities (i.e. not dealing with vulnerable people). On the other hand, if protection against severe disease wanes, then boosters could be a requirement; it really depends how things play out.

And ultimately, I'd imagine people would rather get a booster shot once a year and show proof of vaccination as opposed to having to stand around outside a sporting event for 15 minutes waiting for their rapid test result to come back. But long-term, there will probably be the option for either for mass gatherings. People with recent vaccinations can walk in while people without them can get tested.
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