This is another issue entirely, but I think they are missing substantial savings by not running down 1st St SW instead of 2nd. Far less and far simpler tunnelling under the beltline/CP tracks, and the bridge over the Bow would be simpler and less of an eyesore to PIP.
lolwut?
"Far less and far simpler tunnelling under the beltline/CP tracks"? Are you just forgetting the 1st St SW subway under the CP line? You'd have to dig deeper!
Don't forget that there's a maximum grade the trains can go up and down. Part of the reason why the bridge goes over the river at 2nd St SW is to lengthen the bridge and lower the grade. You put the bridge a block closer to Centre Street and the portal to above grade has to be deeper into downtown and further from the river...
"Far less and far simpler tunnelling under the beltline/CP tracks"? Are you just forgetting the 1st St SW subway under the CP line? You'd have to dig deeper!
Don't forget that there's a maximum grade the trains can go up and down. Part of the reason why the bridge goes over the river at 2nd St SW is to lengthen the bridge and lower the grade. You put the bridge a block closer to Centre Street and the portal to above grade has to be deeper into downtown and further from the river...
Use the 1st SW underpass. ie. permanently close the road to traffic. You'd have to dig it a bit deeper, but while you're at it you could make a much much better pedestrian underpass.
To make the turn off 11th you're going under the Circle K and it's surface parking lot. Compared to the 200 block where you're going under the 110 year old (make that 140 by the time we see shovels) Lewis Stationery Building...and then a whole new tunnel under CPR and the parkade ramp.
As for the river side, yes. Shorter, straighter, simpler, less uglier = cheaper. That's the point. The line can start coming up to surface north of 4 Ave, for a surface level station near Riverfront Ave, and then it would be a straight shot from Sien Lok Park to a portal around where the Crescent Hts pathway connects to Centre St. Exactly like E=NG has on both sides of their river bridge.
Added bonus is Sien Lok park would be a much better staging area on the south side of the river. No need for another 5 years of mess in the heart of PIP and a permanent eyesore (has anyone costed that?). Kill the stupid 9th ave station while we're at it, and we should be pretty close to affording another 1500 meters of cut+cover down Centre.
In reality putting it up 1st Street will be much more difficult, and it won't just go under the single-storey retail at the Circle K, but will go under the Mount Royal House apartments (where Bottlescrew Bill's is) and may clip the foundation of the Palliser Hotel.
You're otherwise arguing that you'd rather turn 1st St north of 4th Ave into a trench, blow away Sien Lok Park, build a tunnel portal halfway up Crescent Heights, delete the 9th Ave N station, and somehow this'll cost so much less money than the current plan that it'll pay for another 1.5 km of cut-and-cover tunnel up Centre Street...?
Sorry to burst your bubble but there isn't a chance in hell of that being less expensive, and the trade-off of trench and surface-level rail up 1st St is a far, far worse proposition.
I'd imagine you can't just cut and cover centre, anyway. It's not just dirt. You are relocating loads of utilities all the way up. I remember when they did the 16th ave intersection and it took forever for them to replace all the lines. And this wouldn't just be replacing, you would have to move them somewhere. At least with a TBM you can go deeper and not worry, though the station would still involve a lot of work, I suspect. That's why elevated saves so much money(in my mind!). Just don't use Edmonton concrete contractors and engineers.
In reality putting it up 1st Street will be much more difficult, and it won't just go under the single-storey retail at the Circle K, but will go under the Mount Royal House apartments (where Bottlescrew Bill's is) and may clip the foundation of the Palliser Hotel.
You're otherwise arguing that you'd rather turn 1st St north of 4th Ave into a trench, blow away Sien Lok Park, build a tunnel portal halfway up Crescent Heights, delete the 9th Ave N station, and somehow this'll cost so much less money than the current plan that it'll pay for another 1.5 km of cut-and-cover tunnel up Centre Street...?
Sorry to burst your bubble but there isn't a chance in hell of that being less expensive, and the trade-off of trench and surface-level rail up 1st St is a far, far worse proposition.
So you're going under 11th Ave Place...an 11 storey building with at least 2 (maybe 3?) levels of underground parking.
You could do a 100m radius turn onto 1st St and you're still just barely clipping the corner of Circle K...no reason it would be anywhere close to under Mt Royal House or the Palliser. For reference, red line has about a 60m radius at 9st/7Ave; and about 80m at 14 Ave/19 St.
As for the portal north of 4th, there is negligible difference in how that would play out on either 1st or 2nd. Yes, I'd rather rip a scar through Sien Lok park than rip a scar through the east half of PIP.
The rationale I didn't elaborate is how much 1st St SW would benefit from this. The core is sorely lacking a vibrant N-S corridor to link our many vibrant E-W streets (8th/11th/12th/17th). 1st already has the most momentum, but of course the CPR underpass sucks and there's not much going on north of 6th. People=vibrancy=people.
2nd St is actually not too bad aesthetically, but there is very little opportunity for street level activation (and it dead ends at 9th). 1st already has some decent retail, with more turnkey space available, and a few surface lots north of 4th that could use a catalyst. 1st St south of the tracks will benefit either way, but much more so if the underpass became nicer+car free, and this would be an effective road diet since 1st would terminate for vehicles at either 10th or 11th.
As for Centre St, I don't actually care too much if it's at grade or buried, but I think there are far greater risks with at-grade (as have been outlined in this thread):
- pushing more cars to 10th/E=NG trail
- it would probably preclude further improvements to the public realm due to simple space constraints
- general mobility issues (reduced crossings, more pinch points near stations, etc)
- train travel speed/delays
- it should really go under 16th Ave either way, effectively shortening the length of trenching required. But of course 16th is a whole other kettle of fish here
I'm all for a road diet on Centre St. But slapping bike-lanes or a streetcar down is not necessarily the most effective way to improve the public realm. They make places feel better because they reduce the speed/volume/proximity of cars, but we're still left with narrow+bumpy sidewalks filled with a potpourri of obstructions like sign poles and utility boxes.
So my reason to go below-grade is actually to achieve a better road diet with more effective public realm improvements. Hopelessly idealistic, I know.
So you're going under 11th Ave Place...an 11 storey building with at least 2 (maybe 3?) levels of underground parking.
Yup! Its a relatively new build, all the as-built info is available; easily accommodated for.
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You could do a 100m radius turn onto 1st St and you're still just barely clipping the corner of Circle K...no reason it would be anywhere close to under Mt Royal House or the Palliser. For reference, red line has about a 60m radius at 9st/7Ave; and about 80m at 14 Ave/19 St.
It's not about what the LRVs are capable of, it's about how tight a turn the tunnel-boring machine can pull.
Physically the LRVs will be capable of minimum radii of about 20 m, but design radii are 30 m in the maintenance yard at Shepard, 60 m at a couple select spots along the line, generally no less than 100 m above grade otherwise, and 150 m in the tunnel downtown.
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As for the portal north of 4th, there is negligible difference in how that would play out on either 1st or 2nd. Yes, I'd rather rip a scar through Sien Lok park than rip a scar through the east half of PIP.
There's a huge difference. Again, if you shorten the bridge you push the tunnel portal further south into downtown. As the design sits now there will be a below-grade station at Eau Claire, and tunnel portal just south of the river path; basically where the low-rise condos north of Eau Claire market are now. Your proposed changes would push the tunnel portal (at least...) two blocks further south; 1 St north of 4th Ave would become a trench. You would not be "ripping a scar through" Sien Lok Park: you'd be eliminating Sien Lok Park.
The complaints about Prince's Island are vastly overblown; it's a bridge flying overhead, big whoop.
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The rationale I didn't elaborate is how much 1st St SW would benefit from this. The core is sorely lacking a vibrant N-S corridor to link our many vibrant E-W streets (8th/11th/12th/17th). 1st already has the most momentum, but of course the CPR underpass sucks and there's not much going on north of 6th. People=vibrancy=people.
2nd St is actually not too bad aesthetically, but there is very little opportunity for street level activation (and it dead ends at 9th). 1st already has some decent retail, with more turnkey space available, and a few surface lots north of 4th that could use a catalyst. 1st St south of the tracks will benefit either way, but much more so if the underpass became nicer+car free, and this would be an effective road diet since 1st would terminate for vehicles at either 10th or 11th.
I honestly can't picture what you're trying to describe. I think you're thinking very shallow cut-and-cover tunnelling, and the train would poke out a portal just north of 10th Ave and poke back underground just south of 9th Ave...? I don't know how you plan to "activate" 1st St north of 9th Ave by having the train run up it. How do you plan to make the underpass "nicer" by having the train there instead of car traffic? It's still the same impediment to pedestrians/cyclists/etc.
I drove past the new condo development at the Dalhousie train station and wow is that first building looking cool. I think most, if not all, the glass is installed and the full glass facade looks great. I also love flat design with the recessed balconies/patios. Such a great modern addition to a relatively old, bland area.
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I drove past the new condo development at the Dalhousie train station and wow is that first building looking cool. I think most, if not all, the glass is installed and the full glass facade looks great. I also love flat design with the recessed balconies/patios. Such a great modern addition to a relatively old, bland area.
I've been away from the city for a few year but grew up in Dalhousie. Whereabouts are these new condos? Is this on the south side of Crowchild off 53rd where that old strip mall is/was?
I've been away from the city for a few year but grew up in Dalhousie. Whereabouts are these new condos? Is this on the south side of Crowchild off 53rd where that old strip mall is/was?
Otherside of Crowchild. Just off Dalhousie Drive east of shopping area and train station parking lot. Right beside the tennis courts.
According to their facebook page, the owners of CB Drive Inn are retiring at the end of the month, and they are holding a farewell event for "Papa and Mama Lee" on January 29 from 12 to 5.
Fortunately I read their sons are going to keep the restaurant open so you'll still be able to get their crinkle cut fries...
I've lived in Calgary in the NW my whole life and I never knew there was a drive in inside that strip mall. I guess I'll try their fries. Their son and nephew took over according to the article:
I've lived in Calgary in the NW my whole life and I never knew there was a drive in inside that strip mall. I guess I'll try their fries. Their son and nephew took over according to the article:
I've lived in Calgary in the NW my whole life and I never knew there was a drive in inside that strip mall. I guess I'll try their fries. Their son and nephew took over according to the article:
Having attended St Francis, I’ve been to CBs so many times. I’ve also seen some crazy #### go down there. One time on a spare or skipping we were there and a guy pulled a machete out of his trunk and carefully slid it down his pants. Presumably preparing for a big fight. He just put his finger to his lips and shushed us. Needless to say we got the #### outta there tout suite.
Having attended St Francis, I’ve been to CBs so many times. I’ve also seen some crazy #### go down there. One time on a spare or skipping we were there and a guy pulled a machete out of his trunk and carefully slid it down his pants. Presumably preparing for a big fight. He just put his finger to his lips and shushed us. Needless to say we got the #### outta there tout suite.
Lol that old trick eh? There is no easier way to get rid of a bunch of loafing teenagers hanging around than conspicuously stuffing a long knife down your pants. It’s best to make eye contact while you do it.
I use that trick all time if there are long line ups, people tend to split pretty quick.
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Its a relatively new build, all the as-built info is available; easily accommodated for.
