So I finished the story and I kind of have the same feeling I did after watching The Last Jedi, so that's probably not a good thing. It was definitely a better sequel than Last Jedi, but it still fell kinda flat for me. I feel like the same story, just told slightly different would have been much better. A few random thoughts, major spoilers.
Spoiler!
Like, all of the spoilers. Don't read unless you're done the game or don't care about spoilers, for whatever reason.
Spoiler!
- First of all, the game is absolutely gorgeous. Naughty Dog are consistently one of the best in the business when it comes to how their games look, and this game raised the bar again.
- I hate the way they killed Joel. I get it, the (former) fireflies coming after him because of what happened in the first game made a lot of sense. But making you play as Abby, get rescued by Joel, then killing him without putting up a fight just sucked. The guy has been surviving in this world for ~25 years now, and both him and Tommy let their guard down like that around a group of heavily armed strangers? I don't buy it.
- The flashback scenes were fantastic, definitely some of my favourite parts of the game. Especially the one where they go to the museum for Ellie's birthday. The game needed more light moments like this, as it was really grim almost the entire time.
- I absolutely despised the way they ripped you out of the climax of Ellie's story and made you play as Abby, especially for as long as they did. I get that they wanted to show you who this character is, but I wish they'd handled it differently. Maybe a Left Behind like DLC down the road? Or kind of show you throughout the game rather than bringing the game to a complete stop and starting over again for like 8 hours. But I really had no interest in finding out who Abby was at that point in time and it really made me hate that part of the game. Making me fight Ellie while playing as Abby was easily the worst part of the game, I can't believe they thought that was a good idea.
- I really didn't like the scene with Tommy coming to the farmhouse and being a dick to Ellie about not finishing the job. That felt really out of character for Tommy and totally unnecessary to progressing the story. I feel like Ellie's PTSD should have just made her want to finish the job on her own, and that's when she goes to Tommy to see if they can find out where Abby went.
- I'm pretty okay with her not following through and killing Abby. Joel died in front of her and it broke her, she couldn't do that same thing to Lev, at least that's the way I saw it. He wasn't watching obviously, but he still would have had the adult who was taking care of him killed over revenge.
- I'm also really glad her last words to Joel weren't "I don't need your ####ing help" at the dance and that they showed that last conversation of her trying to repair the relationship with him.
- Overall, I'd say maybe an 7.5-8/10? Which for Naughty Dog is a pretty low score from me, cause they're easily one of my favourite developers. Hopefully whatever they do next tells a better story that I know they're capable of.
__________________
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Originally Posted by CroFlames
Before you call me a pessimist or a downer, the Flames made me this way. Blame them.
So I finished the story and I kind of have the same feeling I did after watching The Last Jedi, so that's probably not a good thing. It was definitely a better sequel than Last Jedi, but it still fell kinda flat for me. I feel like the same story, just told slightly different would have been much better. A few random thoughts, major spoilers.
It's hard to discern real vs fake fan reviews but plenty of people are saying the graphics and gameplay are great but the story is a swing and miss to the point where you may have nailed it with the TLJ reference where critics loved it and moviegoers didn't. I will form my own opinion after playing it myself.
I'm skipping to the end of the conversation without reading the other comments because I don't want to be spoiled but I'm 8-10 hours in and absolutely loving this game. The first one might be my favourite game (along with the first Red Dead) so if you're a fan of that one you'll love this one too.
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Play so far? Really good. There are still some weird rough edges control wise, but nothing game breaking and probably would be resolved with some future basic optimizing updates. The visuals are amazing. I agree they look next gen.
Fantastic game so far, but definitely not masterpiece. It is really cool to play through and recognize certain structures, styles and areas of Seattle. This game is more Achilles than Hercules based on the what I've seen so far. The weakness is definitely quite fatal depending on how you view it. Great game though and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend buying and playing it based on what I've seen so far.
No spoilers below but some general design stuff mentioned which might spoil some stuff for others.
Spoiler!
For those playing right now, when you hit the character swap sections, I would recommend putting the game down for about fifteen minutes to half an hour, resetting your mind and walking into the game a bit fresh. I kinda lucked out. I hit those section, played 30 minutes or so, and did fathers day stuff and when I came back to the game, quite a few of my annoyances kinda just evaporated.
I'm a few hours in after starting the Abby story line. I'm at around 17 hours played and I hit the Abby story line around the 13.5 hour mark. IMO, the SJW gender arguments etc. are quite overblown. The criticisms about Abby's masculine design are quickly forgettable.
The issues start popping up at the Abby play though where the game kinda loses focus. You play as Ellie up to a certain point that feels pretty close to the end of the story and you swap to Abby. Not only is this a huge cliff hanger, but it is done so in a manner that really lets the air out of your sails. They introduce it in a way where they perhaps douse a hot iron with ennui and gamer fatigue and annoyance is inevitable. This IMO is frankly quite dumb and the specific spot and issue that many of the initial reviewers had with the game. Unlike most vocal individuals though, IMO the required changes would be minuscule, not major.
The Abby swap feels like you're restarting the game/playing for the first time which feels insulting. All stats at base and you have to kinda suddenly "grind" late game to bring the character up to par. But you kinda figured out the controls 10 hours prior and the game is inexplicably re-introducing mechanics you've kinda mastered for quite a while already. This is annoying and you're already starting several steps behind with focusing on exploring to boost your stats and equip and you kinda miss out on her story. There's plenty of sections that disallow you to use your controls (ie: Can't run) and you're just walking through areas for no reason, not even dialogue. You just kinda spin the camera around to see where you are at in a situation where you're already kinda annoyed and are trying to rush through to start grinding up Abby or just rush the story to get back to Ellie.
I get the game is trying to intertwine the stories, but it's badly done. You learn far too much from Ellie's perspective and are so invested either due to TLOU1 or the TLOU2 play through it's jarring why the game suddenly demands you see Abby's perspective and "asks" if you'd like to invest in Abby. So far, IMO it's not a content/story issue, it's a storytelling methodology issue.
Either we should have started off as Abby, or we should have swapped to the Abby play through after Ellie Seattle day 1 and utilize Abby as foreshadow to Ellie's day 2+ play through story. I don't know what Abby's end story is (just started) or what the overall end story is, but pacing and story telling wise, there's some really inexplicably bad choices being made. I don't know what the end holds, but so far, I feel like if they had made very basic restructuring of the story, I wouldn't disagree with some of the masterpiece level hype. It's just really jarring how you're plopped into Abby's world and very bizarre you're re-introduced to what you felt was a closed loop, asked to take it apart, introduce new pieces, then step back and ponder whether you've learned anything new.
As far as I can seemingly tell and am also guessing, the game goes:
Ellie 5%, Abby 5%, Ellie 90%, Abby 90%, Ellie/Abby 5%? (Unless I'm very incorrect with how much Ellie story is left at the end).
Swapping Ellie and Abby's 90% main game or intertwining them more (ie: 30%/30%/30%) might make more sense. Like play Ellie Day 1, Abby Day 1 and swap back and forth. Don't make us play the equivalent of Ellie prologue, day 1-3 to climax/cliff hanger and then start us fresh on Abby. Although, somehow I am looking at the game design and wondering if someone demanded a revision on the order of how some of the game is played out. Why else would the game give you a basic tutorial on some of the game mechanics the moment you swap over to Abby? Such design is logical if you swapped from Ellie to Abby after Ellie's day 1 for instance (about total 5-7 hours in which includes both Ellie's and Abby's intro and the game's "preamble") when you're still kinda fresh to the controls.
If some of the internal and external themes of the cycle of violence is correct, then I am curious to know if a heavy irony hangs on this game based on how it was developed. There were rumors that there was some internal disagreements on the game development and I wonder if those internal agreements ended up butchering the game. Like I said, the elements I've run into so far aren't as bad as how I interpreted the reviews. But I also agree the way they put together a section (Seems like the Abby play through reference) feels badly like a side quest.
Metaphorically, I feel like planning a hyped sports car launch, getting everyone to jump in and take it for a spin and race down 3/4 of a race track, then forcing everyone to pit stop and doing basic low speed pylon drills and whatnot before you even get out of the vehicle. IMO it's that bizarre and jarring of a transition. This game is great, but far more capable then the current order of the sum of its parts. It can hold a bit of a light against TLOU1, but IMO it deserves better on its own merits. I think tweaking the ordering would be huge in garnering support from late comers to the game.
I knew it, but only because I screwed up and read an unmarked spoiler-filled review that revealed that in the first paragraph (conveniently similar to how you had it lol). I've tried not to spoil anything else for myself.
That said, I'm about 4-5ish hours in (this might mean different things to different people, but I'm past all the setups and story motivations and into Seattle). So far, so good. Visuals are pretty stunning, audio is great, mechanics are good but I wouldn't call them much of an improvement so far. Story is... eh, way too early to judge. Can't say I'm really engaged by any aspect of it yet, seems like a clunky Walking Dead script thus far (high on SHOCK VALUE but low on any resonance). That said, I'm keeping my mind open and still hoping for something great. TLOU 1 had a really strong opening that perfectly set the tone and hit you right in the gut, TLOU2 feels more forced and inconsistent in the opening to me, but TLOU1 really hit it's stride as it went on and the ending was fantastic, so I have hopes this can at least hit that part right.
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I knew it, but only because I screwed up and read an unmarked spoiler-filled review that revealed that in the first paragraph (conveniently similar to how you had it lol). I've tried not to spoil anything else for myself.
That said, I'm about 4-5ish hours in (this might mean different things to different people, but I'm past all the setups and story motivations and into Seattle). So far, so good. Visuals are pretty stunning, audio is great, mechanics are good but I wouldn't call them much of an improvement so far. Story is... eh, way too early to judge. Can't say I'm really engaged by any aspect of it yet, seems like a clunky Walking Dead script thus far (high on SHOCK VALUE but low on any resonance). That said, I'm keeping my mind open and still hoping for something great. TLOU 1 had a really strong opening that perfectly set the tone and hit you right in the gut, TLOU2 feels more forced and inconsistent in the opening to me, but TLOU1 really hit it's stride as it went on and the ending was fantastic, so I have hopes this can at least hit that part right.
I also thought it seemed obvious since we already dabbled in it before the Seattle part of the game and within the first hour or so of game play. But again, I agree with your comments, that was my bad and a slip up for anyone who intends on grabbing the game later. I guess the ordering of things was also a bit of a bigger spoiler than I realized even if it isn't giving away story details. Good call.
I agree about the tone setting. The beginning of the game made me unsure if I was playing TLOU or something like Life is Strange at times. But the game gets much more solid footing in once the preamble, TLOU1 acknowledgements and set up is over.
I'm about 10 hours in and absolutely loving it so far. Naughty Dog has made some decisions that have surprised me from a story and gameplay perspective and I can't wait to see what else they have in store as I haven't had anything spoiled for me.
In typical ND fashion this game is a technical marvel. Visuals, audio, acting, etc. There really isn't anything better in the industry right now. The way this game makes you feel the tension on a scene by scene basis is amazing. The level of detail in every single room is unparalleled and tells a unique story. I have spent at least a couple hours just picking up notes and looking at items in buildings. The amount of love the artists put into this game is amazing.
These are beloved characters so I can understand some feeling so passionately about the story- good and bad, but I love the fact that Naughty Dog is telling the story they want to tell. They don't hold back, which is awesome to see.
Like others I was a bit concerned this game would be "too bleak" for the current times, but I've been pleasantly surprised at how things have been broken up so far. There have been plenty of little moments that make me smile and even laugh. Happy to report the bleakness hasn't been an issue in the slightest for myself so far.
The game gives back to the fans too. There are so many callbacks to the original- big and small that I really appreciated. Having just recently replayed the first game and the Left Behind dlc it was fresh in my mind.
Ellie as the main character is quicker and more nimble than Joel in the first game. It's little things like how quickly she runs, the ability to go prone, jump, and dodge that really enhance the feeling of the gameplay, while also staying true to the original. This is more stealth based as well- there are some sections where you can avoid combat entirely. There is a lot more freedom gameplay wise in that regard.
So far, this has been a huge upgrade in every single way from the original. If you are a fan of the first game, I couldn't even imagine not playing this to see how it is for yourself. Heck, even if you're a fan of single player video games in general you owe it to yourself to check this game out.
Like I said, I haven't finished this game yet- I'm not even halfway through, but concerns from earlier in the thread comparing this to Andromeda, calling it a franchise killer, etc are very off base.
Everything I have seen so far make me believe that this game truly is a masterpiece and one of the best of the generation. Very much deserving of all the glowing reviews it received.
Last edited by bax; 06-23-2020 at 09:56 AM.
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I have always compared playing a naughty dog game, to playing an interactive movie. Their cinematics, pacing and story telling are the highest bar out there.
Now that people are actually finishing the game, the User scores have risen 32%.
Shocker! Lol.
Quote:
When I first covered the great user score flood coming into Metacritic, the game had been out a few hours was sunk down to a 3.4/10. Since then, with 81,500 reviews in, the 32% rise has brought that score up to a 4.5/10.
Yes, that’s still very low, but I think it does reflect a lot more higher scores coming in, because it is not easy to drag up an average with this many low scores in already. And I do think its reflective of…people actually playing and finishing the game. Some of it may be Metacritic deleting some of the most offensive and hateful reviews but again…there are still 81,500 live, most of them still very low.
Now that people are actually finishing the game, the User scores have risen 32%.
Shocker! Lol.
Yeah, I mean...big surprise. I tend to discount reviews in the 0-2 range, and side eye '10/10' ones. From everything I've seen, including several reviewers who I've liked and found to have similar tastes to mine in the past, this game will end up in the 6-7.5 range, which is nothing to sneeze at but certainly not "best of this generation", either.
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Yeah, I mean...big surprise. I tend to discount reviews in the 0-2 range, and side eye '10/10' ones. From everything I've seen, including several reviewers who I've liked and found to have similar tastes to mine in the past, this game will end up in the 6-7.5 range, which is nothing to sneeze at but certainly not "best of this generation", either.
13 hours in I'm around the 6 range. But I know there's 10-20 hours to come (I'm slow and enjoy finding all the random junk in each area, so probably closer to 20). I could see certain things coming together and bumping that up to a 7 or 8.
Certainly not the best of this generation overall, you're right. But visually (and audibly?) right up there, maybe even a lock.
To me it's the plausibility of the whole thing dragging it down a bit right now. Like this 19 year old girl, with no real combat training and very little experience against real people, is going to waltz in to an unfamiliar city, scavenge weapons, and take down a heavily armed and organized militia all by herself. I know "it's a video game" and all that, but when you're aiming for realism it becomes a bit of an eye roller. At least give me a "Joel trained Ellie every day in guerilla warfare tactics for years" throwaway or something to make it somewhat plausible.
I haven't beaten the game yet, but IMO the game immediately spiked to a 9-9.5/10 right off the bat. Once I hit a certain part of the game, I felt like the rating is dropping by half a point to a full point or so every chapter.
EDIT: I beat the game and while it was a fantastic experience overall, I'm annoyed by how the game was packaged together at times. I rate it a solid 7. It has all the elements of being fantastic. I think the game experience would have been improved immensely if they had reordered a few chapters as I'd kinda play certain areas and realize I knew what was going to happen in the next 10-20 minutes and I'd try to rush the section. There are also areas in the late game where they inexplicably seal off your abilities and force you to slow down.
Overall, fantastic game. I'd recommend it. I really wish they'd reorder a few chapters though. It would have made the game significantly better.
Alright, I'm not reading the other posts just to avoid spoilers, but I'm 11+ hours into my playthrough. For reference, I am
Spoiler!
Heading to the aquarium after the part where you see Ellie find out about what Joel did.
I understand that reviews were supposed to be based on the first 12 hours of the game. And honestly, I'm not sure, based on those first 12 hours that I'm now basically through, how you could give this anything BUT a 10/10. Okay, if you're a stickler, a 9. But frankly I feel like I've gotten 80 bucks out of this already so if goes completely to #### from here, I guess I'll have to just take that into account.
I have repeatedly argued that the first game was the best game ever made, and this is more of the same. I would say that the best things about the first game aren't quite as well done here, because I noticed a palpable uptick in my enjoyment during the parts where
Spoiler!
the game flashes back to Ellie and Joel, especially the Museum trip
. But the rest of it is still really, really good. And god damn, is it ever beautiful.
Will update once I see what the controversy ends up being about. Can't imagine it's anything I've come across so far. Although I will say, the dogs are SUPER annoying.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
I understand that reviews were supposed to be based on the first 12 hours of the game.
I'm pretty sure they could review the whole game, but only talk about the first 12 hours. So as long as they're careful about what they said, they can review the whole game just fine.
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I just powered through to the end because why not. Short answer: not as good as the first one. I just don't really know what story they were trying to tell. The first one worked in terms of character growth and culminated with a big philosophical issue. This one... I just don't know what it was trying to say, other than the hamfisted stuff about the cycle of violence.
Spoiler!
Also, why Santa Barbara? Why that at all? I actually thought it was over on the farm with Deena and Ellie and the kid (Spud?) and they were going to give her a nice happy ending. Big nope to that. Was this an attempt to set up for a third game? I do not know what that whole chapter was trying to say about Ellie, why she couldn't let it go, what we're supposed to learn about the human condition by going through that. Just a weird decision in a very good game with a lot of weird decisions.
... Oh, and I agree that it was poorly ordered. Even sprinkling some of the MILLION CUTSCENES at the end (I thought I was watching Return of the King extended edition for a minute there) throughout the main story would have worked a heck of a lot better. Those flashbacks didn't need to happen right at the end like that.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
