[Rumour] Kypreos: Flames 1st round pick is in play

[Street Pharmacist]

This is a bit of a slanted view of 1sts/2nds.


Here's who Treliving has drafted in the 1st/2nd

Bennett
McDonald
Smith
Andersson
Kylington
Parsons
Dube
Tkachuk
Valimaki


Even if you remove Bennett and Tkachuk, that's still some great value.


If you don't have decent prospects on entry level contracts, you will fail in the near term because the salary cap will ensure it

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

2011 Blackhawks were the defending champs who had just lost a bit of depth due to a cap crunch but still had their core intact. Instead of adding bodies to fill out their depth they hoarded draft picks, in particular Andrew Shaw, Brandon Saad, and Teuvo Teravainen. You don't think those guys extended their cup window? They also had another 1st in 2010, Kevin Hayes @ 24th overall, who might have furthered that window had he not elected to sign in New York as a UFA.

CHI traded away 2 of their top 10 scorers after that first cup to recoup draft picks. Saad was a 2nd rd pick (thanks in part to the Flames) and Shaw was a fifth. The CHI 2011 1st (McNeill) played a total of 2 NHL games. Don't tell me CHI would rather have a SC vs that first rounder.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

2010 Capitals won the President's Trophy. Instead of a rental they kept their pick. That pick was Evgeni Kuznetsov, their leading scorer in the 2018 playoffs en route to the cup. You don't think they extended their cup window?

Hindsight is 20/20 - they could have just as easily ended up with a Jared Knight (0 NHL games).

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

2014 Bruins won the President's Trophy. Instead of a rental they also kept their pick. That pick was David Pastrnak, their current leading scorer. Bergeron has had some injuries, but when healthy they have shown an ability to dominate games in every way. You don't think their Cup Window is still open come April? Would it be open without Pastrnak?

And yet the Bruins traded away their 2011 1st for a rental (Kaberle) and went on to win the SC. Would you rather have 3 months of a 2nd pairing D-man and the SC or Jensen (31 NHL gp), Phillips (0 NHL gp), or a dozen others and no SC.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I look at the Flames and I see:

A 35 year old #1 left defenseman who does it all.
A 29 year old #2 right defenseman with a year left on his deal.
A 29 year old #3 right defenseman with a year left on his deal
A 22 year old prospect right defenseman who seems to get hemmed in all the time whether he is playing 2nd pair or 3rd.
Three young left D
A looming expansion draft.

So yeah, picking up a RD, for example, in the first round of the draft, could be a difference maker especially if you are not willing to go all in on Rasmus Andersson as a future top pairing right defenseman, and that future rop pairing won't even have Giordano in his prime. That could extend our window, especially if we luck out and our first rounder is a PK Subban or a John Carlson.

Again, to my mind, the question is what kind of player will you get at #20-30 vs the player you get for what seems to be a great shot at the SC right now.
We are just as likely to get a McNeill as a Kuznetzov.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

This is a bit of a slanted view of 1sts/2nds.


Here's who Treliving has drafted in the 1st/2nd

Bennett
McDonald
Smith
Andersson
Kylington
Parsons
Dube
Tkachuk
Valimaki


Even if you remove Bennett and Tkachuk, that's still some great value.


If you don't have decent prospects on entry level contracts, you will fail in the near term because the salary cap will ensure it

The Penguins have traded away 5 of their 6 last first round picks. The only draft pick that became anything in the past 6 years is Guentzel and he was a diamond in the rough in the 3rd round at #77.

They won the Stanley Cup twice.

[GioforPM]

I don't mind trading picks for a player better than what could reasonably be acquired for the pick. What I hate is a high pick for a rental, just because, in 6 months, you have neither.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Firebot

The Penguins have traded away 5 of their 6 last first round picks. The only draft pick that became anything in the past 6 years is Guentzel and he was a diamond in the rough in the 3rd round at #77.

They won the Stanley Cup twice.

Murray was a pretty good find. I think they can get away with it because Crosby and Malkin are elite elite guys. I think that organization also knows that a retool on the fly won't work when those guys leave. It will be a full rebuild.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Welcome to the world of being a contending team.

I understand your unfamiliarity with it, it’s been a long time coming.

Hoarding drafts picks at this stage doesn’t really extend the window, it simply assures that you’ve decreased your chances of winning the Cup. It does increase your chances of of being a “close but no cigar” type of team.

When you get the chance with a really good team, you need to roll the dice and make it better.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yeah, but you stay a contender by being able to let expensive players go and replace them with Guentzel, Rust, Gourde, Cirelli, etc, etc...

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by goflamesgo18

2008 - Detroit trades 2nd and 4th picks for Brad Stuart and wins cup.

And they still drafted four players in the top 100 in that very same draft.

Penguins Trade 2nd and 5th for Hal Gill, also trade 1st, Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito for Hossa and Dupuis and make SCF.

2009 - Penguins trade 3rd for Bill Guerin, trade 4th, Stone, Sabourin for Garon and wins cup

Have covered the Penguins already. They still maintained their picks in the top 100 so as not to exhaust their resources.

2011 - Bruins trade 1st, 2nd, Joe Colborne for Kaberle, also trade another 2nd for chris kelly and win cup

Bruins still maintained a 1st round pick in the 2012 draft, and picked two players in the top 100.

2012 - Kings trade Jack Johnson and 1st for Jeff Carter and win cup

And had six picks in the top 100 over the next two drafts.

2014 - Kings trade 2nd, 3rd, and Frattin for Gaborik and win cup

After picking four players in the top 100 the previous year, then four more the following two years. Kings drafting was poor, which really impacted their ability to remain a viable threat.

Rangers trade Callahan, 1st, 2nd for St.Louis and make SCF

Rangers are a pretty good team to look at right now. The Flames are doing what they did. They traded first rounders in back-to-back-to-back years, and now look at them. They are a bottom feeder and don't have a helluva lot to look forward to. They are basically trying to sell off what they have to try and get those picks to rebuild their system.

2015 - Hawks trade 1st and Dahlbek for Vermette, also trade 2nd and fourth for Timmonen and win cup

But back it up with 10 players in the top 100 in the three drafts around that trade. Chicago has actually gone out of their way to recoup more picks to address their budget challenge. They are trying to address their problem.

Lightning trade Gudas, 1st, 3rd for Coburn and make SCF

The Lightning picked four players in the top 100 from that draft, then fiver players in the top 100 in the next draft. Nine players in the top 100! That's why they can afford star players and still be competitive and sitting atop the league.

2016 - Sharks trade two 2nds and Torres for Polak and Spaling and make SCF

Sharks will be a team to watch and see how this plays out. They have only drafted five players in the top 100 in the past three drafts. This will be a case study of the sustainability of position in the NHL, and likely similar to the Flames future, although they will have more assets than the Flames.

2018 - Vegas trades 1st, 2nd, 3rd for Tatar and makes SCF

This after drafting THREE time in the previous first round. Also, Vegas still managed to draft NINE players in the top 100 in the two drafts, including the one they traded away their first round pick.

Just a few of the SCF teams and high draft picks used to make the final. Doesn't always work out but more often than not, one of the SCF teams used their 1st or multiple picks to put them over the edge.

I guess the question is, do you believe the Flames are in position to win the cup, or do you want the Flames to be sustainable to where they can challenge out of the west for the next six to ten years? I want them to win the cup, but I also want them to be a top team in the league for the next decade. They can do both.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by New Era

Flames really can't afford to move that first. Treliving needs to stop bleeding high picks as the situation in the development system is dire. The system is really really thin and needs restocking, and quickly. Valimaki is only in the minors because of his injury. Without him on the farm we really don't have a single defensive prospect that we can consider a future NHLer. The only guy that probably looks like a player with any serious development potential is AOM, and he's not even on a NHL deal. Up front things are similarly as bleak. Dube is our best forward prospect on the farm, and after that we're in the 24-25 year old bubble level players (Foo, Rychel, Lazar, Lomberg). Phillips is available, but has such a long road to go is not even in the conversation at this point. It is sad to say, but we probably have the most prospect depth in net, and that isn't even that good. Trelving has built a really good NHL squad, but he has pretty much gone full Darryl Sutter with the draft picks and has stemmed the flow of quality prospects coming into the system. Flames need a couple big drafts with some early picks to restock the system or we're going to be feeling the pinch in the next couple of seasons as those good young cost controlled players are no longer available to the team.

I generally agree with this, however if the plan was to trade this year's first for a good player with term who fits the age profile and trade someone like Brodie prior to the draft to recoup a first (hopefully a better one) I'd be ok with it. This is assuming that they would be trading Brodie (as an example) because of cap or log jam issues, not just to get a first back.

[goflamesgo18]

Originally Posted by New Era

And they still drafted four players in the top 100 in that very same draft.
Have covered the Penguins already. They still maintained their picks in the top 100 so as not to exhaust their resources.

Bruins still maintained a 1st round pick in the 2012 draft, and picked two players in the top 100.

And had six picks in the top 100 over the next two drafts.

After picking four players in the top 100 the previous year, then four more the following two years. Kings drafting was poor, which really impacted their ability to remain a viable threat.

Rangers are a pretty good team to look at right now. The Flames are doing what they did. They traded first rounders in back-to-back-to-back years, and now look at them. They are a bottom feeder and don't have a helluva lot to look forward to. They are basically trying to sell off what they have to try and get those picks to rebuild their system.
But back it up with 10 players in the top 100 in the three drafts around that trade. Chicago has actually gone out of their way to recoup more picks to address their budget challenge. They are trying to address their problem.
The Lightning picked four players in the top 100 from that draft, then fiver players in the top 100 in the next draft. Nine players in the top 100! That's why they can afford star players and still be competitive and sitting atop the league.
Sharks will be a team to watch and see how this plays out. They have only drafted five players in the top 100 in the past three drafts. This will be a case study of the sustainability of position in the NHL, and likely similar to the Flames future, although they will have more assets than the Flames.
This after drafting THREE time in the previous first round. Also, Vegas still managed to draft NINE players in the top 100 in the two drafts, including the one they traded away their first round pick.
I guess the question is, do you believe the Flames are in position to win the cup, or do you want the Flames to be sustainable to where they can challenge out of the west for the next six to ten years? I want them to win the cup, but I also want them to be a top team in the league for the next decade. They can do both.

So you are saying draft picks are important or something like that? Of course I agree that they are. I believe Flames are in a position to win the cup right now and in the next 6 years as well. This years late first will most likely not decide how competitive this team is 6 years from now. They also have expendable trade pieces like Brodie (this offseason) and Backlund (Next offseason) that would return a 1st + each. Janko and Bennett would also return 1sts if need be, but I would rather hang onto both because of their age.

[Vinny01]

Looking at Treliving and the picks being squandered that has really only happened in the last 2 drafts.

2014- 1st and 2 2nds
2015- 2 2nds and have since traded for a guy picked in the 1st round of that draft.
2016- 1st and 2 2nds
2017- 1st
2018- nothing
2019- 1st still in our possession and 2nd is traded.


I believe the Flames will pick in the top 60 of the draft this summer even if they love their first at the deadline. They might need to shed some cap to keep the team together next year which could result in trading a roster player for draft pick to keep our rental player longer than the stretch drive.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

2011 Blackhawks were the defending champs who had just lost a bit of depth due to a cap crunch but still had their core intact. Instead of adding bodies to fill out their depth they hoarded draft picks, in particular Andrew Shaw, Brandon Saad, and Teuvo Teravainen. You don't think those guys extended their cup window? They also had another 1st in 2010, Kevin Hayes @ 24th overall, who might have furthered that window had he not elected to sign in New York as a UFA.

The Hawks had no choice, they had too many good players, so traded a number and could only take back draft picks because they had no room to add salary.

Given the choice, they would have (1) not traded those guys for picks; or (2) traded picks for players if they had the cap room.

There was no intention of "hoarding draft picks".

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The Hawks had no choice, they had too many good players, so traded a number and could only take back draft picks because they had no room to add salary.

Given the choice, they would have (1) not traded those guys for picks; or (2) traded picks for players if they had the cap room.

There was no intention of "hoarding draft picks".

Welcome to living in a salary capped world.