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View Poll Results: Do you support the current version of CalgaryNEXT?
Yes 163 25.39%
No 356 55.45%
Undecided 123 19.16%
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Old 04-25-2016, 08:59 PM   #1601
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Just wondering if anyone's perception of the small towns in the Amazon where massive soccer stadiums were built for the World Cup has changed? Ahh good old Manaus, Brazil to think you were a sleepy backwater only just a few short years ago....
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Old 04-25-2016, 09:00 PM   #1602
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I don't think I've seen anything earlier in this thread...are there any other examples of combined fieldhouse/football stadium similar to what is proposed in CNext? We've seen dozens of other concepts of arena concourse and stadium roofing solutions to compare to, but I don't remember any combined fieldhouse/stadium examples. I'm sure some must exist in US colleges (but even then they would be intended for college population more than general public)...
I don't think there are any specific examples of a public-use athletic/training facility also acting as a major sports venue for "outdoor" sports like is proposed for CalgaryNext.

There are many examples, including the Jack Simpson Gym at the UofC, of these types of facilities used by universities for their main spectator venues for "indoor" sports.

From what I can find, very few NCAA football programs play their games in enclosed stadiums. The few that do either share with an NFL team (or, in the case of San Antonio, play in a stadium that was built for an NFL team that never came), or play in a very small building with a capacity under 20,000. Neither case is really comparable to CalgaryNext.
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Old 04-25-2016, 09:11 PM   #1603
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Thanks - I wasn't so much wondering about stadium+arena, but rather stadium+fieldhouse. That Moscow example looks very cool (and rings a bell from earlier) but does not seem to have a public fieldhouse component.

I'm more curious about seeing the retractable seating ideas, etc. actually in practice and how various user groups feel about it.

For instance, Edmonton has 'Joe Clarke Athletic Grounds' adjacent to commonwealth stadium, but that's not to the same scope of what's being prepared, and not actually a shared footprint...
I getcha

I don' think any new buildings are being made in that concept, especially for pro-sports and public/amateur.

If anything, the combination of a pro-sport arena and a public complex seems very "small town". Like what actual small towns do
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Old 04-25-2016, 09:45 PM   #1604
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I return to my thought that an indoor football stadium would 'combine' much better with an events/conference centre (just like what Stampede is proposing to do!). Playing surface is approx 120k sq ft (for reference, each BMO Hall is 50k, so A,B, C together are 150k), and a retractable seating set up could add 40-70k sq feet per side (for a possible 200k+ sq ft. - with high ceiling no less).

I think the opportunites for modular/customizable design work a lot better between these two functions (also, set-up and tear-down speed are less crucial - every Stamps game could have 2 days on either end if necessary...I'm not convinced we were ever looking at closing the fieldhouse <6 hours before a game to convert to stadium set-up).

Brighter architectual minds than I would figure this out, but I envision the space divisible into quarters (or halves, either direction) - walls similar to current dividers for BMO halls (or any convention centre for that matter), but obviously much taller. On a given weekend, 3/4 of the space could serve a tradeshow during the day, while the other quarter is set for a concert that night. The possibilities are endless.

- Theatre style seating could appeal to certain events (or components of events)
- Luxury boxes (especially 'super-suites' have tremendous functionality for an events complex...compared to sitting idle as a fieldhouse). These spaces are important for tradeshow/conferences, but would also be a revenue generator with concerts of all sizes.
- With the right design, this facility could serve 2 major concert 'sizes' that are currently unserved - the 30k+ U2 stadium show, but also the 4-8k size theatre, currently only served via the Corral (soon to not exist).
- It would be a much more appropriate facility for the kinds of concerts we currently see in BMO Centre Halls or Big Four now too.
- The sheer size would open up more possibilities for year round industrial/agricultural tradeshows (like we see every June with Global Petroleum Show / GO expo)

The main thing to figure out would be the floor, but we've already seen what's possible with the stadium in Arizona, and it wouldn't even be necessary to construct endzone bleachers as they do (other than Grey Cup, etc.).


It seems to me a partnership made in heaven (not least the fact that the Stampeders could play at Stampede Park). The Stampede builds a stadium/conference Centre that serves the Stamps well - mutually beneficial for both parties, with the Stampede doing the Flames/Stamps something of a favour by helping get them out of McMahon. The Flames stay on or very near Stampede Park (people can blather all they want about the 'Stampede Board' vs. The Flames, but I continue to contend that is all largely unfounded, and in the end this is also a mutually beneficial partnership) - somewhat doing the Stampede a favour as it contributes to their vision of a 'gathering place'. Perhaps they look at a parkade as part of an arena project (assuming it is on the periphery if not outside of the 10 day festival gates), as that would also benefit both parties (and help offset the inevitable loss of parking with a stadium footprint).

We've got a pretty decent set-up (albeit not perfect) for hosting large gatherings of people (be it tradeshows/conferences during the day, hockey games or concerts during the night, or a 10 day festival every summer) - I'm not sure why we would want to try to reinvent this half-assedly on the other side of downtown.
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Old 04-26-2016, 08:02 AM   #1605
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The VTB Arena, looks like it has changed a bit:


Skip to 2:40. You can see it is much smaller scale with the arena only holding 11,500. There are some animations of retractable seats as well, and different configurations. Overall though, this looks to be a lot smaller than CalgaryNext.
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Old 04-26-2016, 09:11 AM   #1606
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Exactly what differentiates Calgary from Edmonton? Seriously? Putting the long standing rivalry aside, what makes Calgary bigger or better than Edmonton? Population? They're both middling sized cities? Economics? I think Calgary is hurting just as bad as Edmonton at the moment. Not much difference. Political influence? Edmonton has Calgary there. Education facilities? U of A is a much better university than U of C. Cultural attractions? Edmonton has a definite facilities advantage and continues to extend that edge. It's great to make fun of Edmonton and the sweat pant wearing mullet set up in the City of Chumps, but I don't see Calgary having much that makes it better than their provincial counterpart, outside of proximity to the Rocky Mountains.
I've spent a fair bit of time in both cities and it's not even close. Calgary . Edmonton.

You can't look at economics in a snapshot. Historically Calgary has been an economic driver. It has had, for the last 30 years or so, the second most corporate head offices in Canada (after TO). It has way more direct flights to and from major cities in the world than Edmonton. This speaks to foreign travel to this Calgary compared to Edmonton. Calgary has a slight size and income advantage, and I suspect a larger percentage of the population has higher education. Calgary has a significantly lower violent crime rate (Edmonton's is second only to Winnipeg and just ahead of Vancouver while Calgary is second lowest after Ottawa). Calgary's downtown makes Edmonton's look silly.

I don't know where you get the notion that U of A is a far better university than U of C. For my three degrees it wasn't more highly regarded, and I'm pretty sure the Business and Engineering faculties in Calgary are more highly regarded.

Facilities? The Jack Singer is better than Edmonton's concert hall. Sports? Well sure, they got their new arena and McMahon is a dump. But that's kinda the whole point, no?
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Old 04-26-2016, 09:20 AM   #1607
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I've spent a fair bit of time in both cities and it's not even close. Calgary . Edmonton.

You can't look at economics in a snapshot. Historically Calgary has been an economic driver. It has had, for the last 30 years or so, the second most corporate head offices in Canada (after TO). It has way more direct flights to and from major cities in the world than Edmonton. This speaks to foreign travel to this Calgary compared to Edmonton. Calgary has a slight size and income advantage, and I suspect a larger percentage of the population has higher education. Calgary has a significantly lower violent crime rate (Edmonton's is second only to Winnipeg and just ahead of Vancouver while Calgary is second lowest after Ottawa). Calgary's downtown makes Edmonton's look silly.

I don't know where you get the notion that U of A is a far better university than U of C. For my three degrees it wasn't more highly regarded, and I'm pretty sure the Business and Engineering faculties in Calgary are more highly regarded.

Facilities? The Jack Singer is better than Edmonton's concert hall. Sports? Well sure, they got their new arena and McMahon is a dump. But that's kinda the whole point, no?
This isn't true.

Probably agree with the rest though.
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Old 04-26-2016, 09:49 AM   #1608
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Exactly what differentiates Calgary from Edmonton?
In terms of development, Calgary didn't need to pander to a private firm in order to get their CRL project to work. While the City did use a private firm's project (i.e. The Bow) to pad the coffers, it was a privately financed project designed by a starchitect (Foster + Partners). The City itself ambitiously, if also controversially, selected a starchitect for a local project (The Peace Bridge) and another private developer (TELUS) building on spec, which you don't see nearly as much of in Edmonton, also showed ambition in the design of their latest project (TELUS Sky designed by BIG).
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Old 04-26-2016, 09:54 AM   #1609
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Comparing cities as a place to live on a grand scale is an insane idea. Unless you alternate between the cities, spending equal amounts of time living in equivalent areas/conditions, it's impossible to make an impartial assessment. As someone who has lived in Edmonton for the last 2 years and is in process of moving back to Calgary, I can at least offer the following opinions:

- The differences between the two cities are pretty marginal, and tend to be largely over-stated. I won't bother getting into little facts like that U of A probably is better regarded than U of C, but MRU>MacEwan, SAIT>NAIT, BVC>Norquest, etc. Edmonton is better in some ways, just as Calgary is.
- Edmonton's weather really isn't that bad (at least not the last two years), but Calgary's is better
- Edmonton's side roads are more like off-road trails than pavement. I didn't even drive very much in YEG, but it drove me nuts
- It can't be argued the Edmonton is 3-4x further away from the mountains - if that's important to you (as it is to me), then that's a huge difference point.

We can however mathetically conclude that Edmonton's hockey team is no good.
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:02 AM   #1610
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One thing about Edmonton that really surprises me given its a capital city is how bad the roads are maintained. As powderjunkie said their side roads are brutal.
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:14 AM   #1611
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One thing about Edmonton that really surprises me given its a capital city is how bad the roads are maintained. As powderjunkie said their side roads are brutal.
This. Their main roads are generally ok, but their smaller roads are brutal. Potholes and bumps everywhere.
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:27 AM   #1612
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Not to mention the sillyness that was the construction of the Henday. Just constant construction forever.
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:39 AM   #1613
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I've spent a fair bit of time in both cities and it's not even close. Calgary . Edmonton.
I spent a fair bit in each city as well, and outside of the blue collar nature of Edmonton I didn't see a helluva lot to give the edge to either. Both are nice enough cities but they both suffer from pretty much the same problems. I will always love Calgary, and call it "home", but after getting out in the rest of the world Calgary is "small town." Edmonton is no different, and it really hurts me to say that.

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You can't look at economics in a snapshot. Historically Calgary has been an economic driver. It has had, for the last 30 years or so, the second most corporate head offices in Canada (after TO). It has way more direct flights to and from major cities in the world than Edmonton. This speaks to foreign travel to this Calgary compared to Edmonton. Calgary has a slight size and income advantage, and I suspect a larger percentage of the population has higher education. Calgary has a significantly lower violent crime rate (Edmonton's is second only to Winnipeg and just ahead of Vancouver while Calgary is second lowest after Ottawa). Calgary's downtown makes Edmonton's look silly.
How is that head office advantage working out right now? Head offices don't mean much if you don't have industry to support them. Small town thinking is what causes Calgary to go through massive swings in economic stability. What is the city doing to diversify the economy? What other interests are looking at Calgary as a place to setup shop and sustain the best economy? What is the city doing to encourage innovative thinking to drive people to the one product that drives the local economy?

Number of high rise buildings don't make a city big or world class. Los Angeles has one of the weakest skylines you'll see, but it is still one of the top cities on he planet. I used to think that the skyscraper was a sign of economic prosperity and a display of a world class city, but after living in other cities around the continent and visiting many off continent I came to realization that those skyscrapers don't mean anything.


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I don't know where you get the notion that U of A is a far better university than U of C. For my three degrees it wasn't more highly regarded, and I'm pretty sure the Business and Engineering faculties in Calgary are more highly regarded.
Does working in higher education and knowing the reputation of schools count? University of Calgary doesn't even crack the top 100 schools in the world for either faculty. They don't even crack the top 10 in Canada for business schools, while U of A comes in at #8. U of C ranks top 10 in Canada for engineering, coming in at #9, but that trails U of A who is ranked #4. U of A ranks #6 in Canada for medicine, and is considered a top 100 school for that faculty in the world, coming in #85. As much as I would like to say that U of C was a good school, the reality it isn't much more than a middling state school in the US.

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Facilities? The Jack Singer is better than Edmonton's concert hall. Sports? Well sure, they got their new arena and McMahon is a dump. But that's kinda the whole point, no?
I love Jack Singer. Spent many a night in that concert hall. Great for what it is, a small venue for very specific events. Definitely better than Edmonton, but still not top shelf. Neither have a theatre or theatre district that would be of notice. oberall facilities to draw big acts and shows is definitely in Edmonton's advantage, and it isn't close. Calgary is sorely lacking in that regard.

Bottom line is Calgary and Edmonton aren't that much different. Calgary has some advantages just like Edmonton has its advantages. Balance them out and there isn't that much difference. But if you're looking as a whole, Calgary does have ground to cover to catch up to Edmonton when it comes to the facilities required to host these big shows and big events. I think we can agree on that?
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Old 04-26-2016, 01:59 PM   #1614
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Bottom line is Calgary and Edmonton aren't that much different. Calgary has some advantages just like Edmonton has its advantages. Balance them out and there isn't that much difference. But if you're looking as a whole, Calgary does have ground to cover to catch up to Edmonton when it comes to the facilities required to host these big shows and big events. I think we can agree on that?
Completely agree, but I'd also say that keeping up with the Jones' in terms of big concerts is a low priority and among the weakest arguments for supporting this kind of project.

Beyond some big concerts, we missed out on a Women's World Cup game. Beyond that, it's pretty equal - each city gets some stuff that the other misses, and that's okay.
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Old 04-26-2016, 03:15 PM   #1615
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I would argue they are more similar than we give them credit for. It's like that principle, the more two things have in common, the more we inflate their differences.

Some guy from Frankfurt could come to both and treat them the same - because they pretty much are.

A lot of the stuff mentioned is speculative or difficult to compare; worse, it's entirely subjective.

The one thing Calgary does have that many people in Edmonton envy is the Downtown/inner-city. People may argue that Calgary DT is s ghost town after 5 pm (name a business core that isn't?), but Edmonton's is absolutely non-existant. It's a ghost town at 10AM in comparison!

This extends to the other facets of the inner city. 17 ave is a 5 minute walk from Stephen ave. The after-work/late night area is concentrated within 15-20 blocks. In Edmonton, you have Whyte Ave and downtown. and you have to take a cab. It's spread apart by a river and highways.

Why is this so? Well, Calgary is definitely more of a corporate/DT city. Edmonton's DT is very government. This effects how long people stay DT and what they do after.

Very similar to Minneapolis and St. Paul Minnesota.

Why is this relevant to the discussion of CalgaryNext?

It's simple. Edmonton's problem has always been its DT core. Its useless from 9 to 5 and an afterthought anytime before or after. It lacks housing, commercial, and retail amenities. It lacks the live/work/play element that Ken King likes to speak to.

Ice District was sold to change that. To finally add to that missing puzzle.

But Calgary doesn't necessarily need that. Downtown is busy. people live all around it and the density is only increasing. We arent fighting suburban flight. So CalgaryNext cannot be sold the same way. Yes we want that area developed in the future but we know that WV doesn't need an arena like Edmonton's DT did.

We are all merely fighting about where we can fit an arena in the steadily growing inner-city.

So yes, Calgary surely beats Edmonton in terms of its inner-city lifestyle. I don't think anyone can deny that and would discuss with anyone who thinks the opposite. Edmonton needed Ice District to bring the DT into the present. Calgary doesnt/

tl;dr: Calgary DT > Edmonton DT = Ice District more desirable than CalgaryNext
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Old 04-27-2016, 02:04 PM   #1616
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SO I just went to the CalgaryNEXT page.
And these plans just surfaced on the About page. These are new hadn't seen these before but answers a lot of questions about the configurations..







Doesn't this look like there's a practice rink build into this thing too?
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Old 04-27-2016, 02:32 PM   #1617
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That already looks 10x better than the original renderings.
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Old 04-27-2016, 02:52 PM   #1618
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Those north side "retractable" seats are pretty magical...they don't just retract, but disappear completely!
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Old 04-27-2016, 02:52 PM   #1619
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Looks like no tiered seating and then a massive amount of box suites above the 19,000 fixed seats. Not sure how I feel about that. But looks like all seats would be of good quality.
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Old 04-27-2016, 02:53 PM   #1620
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I remember watching on TV a couple of years ago on of thous demolition shows that show you how they demo large buildings ,this one episode they showed how they did that Russian stadium. They had to leave those seats and that huge sign .it was pretty interesting. I never saw what the new stadium look like until now very cool
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