CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

This is an internal business concern. Certainly something to be considered in negotiations, but many, many tax payers don't care about the how HRR plays out for the NHL.

Absolutely right. But it explains part of the reason why CSE wants the city to front that $250 million loan. Another reason is that the city likely can get better interest rates. But if the city flat out says 'no', I would expect CSE to look elsewhere for that loan. King actually admitted that during the initial reveal.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Absolutely right. But it explains part of the reason why CSE wants the city to front that $250 million loan. Another reason is that the city likely can get better interest rates. But if the city flat out says 'no', I would expect CSE to look elsewhere for that loan. King actually admitted that during the initial reveal.

It likely ends up as being guaranteed by the province regardless.

[calgarygeologist]

The city has an extra $54 million right now that is burning a hole in their pockets. Maybe they could give that money to the Flames.

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/mayor-nens...gary-1.2819218

[Flash Walken]

With the NFL confirming a link between football and CTE/Brain damage, should the City really be putting money into an arena for a sport that is leading to cognitive disruptions of its athletes?

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

With the NFL confirming a link between football and CTE/Brain damage, should the City really be putting money into an arena for a sport that is leading to cognitive disruptions of its athletes?

And you don't think the link exists between hockey and brain damage just because they haven't made a similar admission? Or any contact sport for that matter. Also, the field house is for more than just football.

Or was your statement in green text? Can't tell on Tapatalk.

[Travis Munroe]

Enjoyed a breakfast event with the COO at the saddledome this morning. He says that regardless of NEXT the city acknowledges a strong need for a field house and it will happen. What would something like this cost if the city built their own?

the 240 million revitalization levy is only going to be hitting those who choose to live/own businesses in close proximity to all the project offers.
250 mill ticket tax is only for those who want to enjoy the product
200 mill from the flames organization
and the 200 mill from the city (minus whatever they would be spending to build their own....)

so my question is if the city were to build a 50-75 million dollar facility without NEXT, the actual amount being asked from taxpayers is 125-150 million of the 900 or so million.

Now take into account whatever comes from being a tourist exporter to tourist importer and it makes even more sense. (his words after speaking of at least 7 high profile concerts lost last year due to the saddledomes roof load allowance)

The more I hear the more in favor of the project I am. I do not like the designs however the concept makes more than enough sense to me

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

Enjoyed a breakfast event with the COO at the saddledome this morning. He says that regardless of NEXT the city acknowledges a strong need for a field house and it will happen. What would something like this cost if the city built their own?

the 240 million revitalization levy is only going to be hitting those who choose to live/own businesses in close proximity to all the project offers.
250 mill ticket tax is only for those who want to enjoy the product
200 mill from the flames organization
and the 200 mill from the city (minus whatever they would be spending to build their own....)

so my question is if the city were to build a 50-75 million dollar facility without NEXT, the actual amount being asked from taxpayers is 125-150 million of the 900 or so million.

Now take into account whatever comes from being a tourist exporter to tourist importer and it makes even more sense. (his words after speaking of at least 7 high profile concerts lost last year due to the saddledomes roof load allowance)

The more I hear the more in favor of the project I am. I do not like the designs however the concept makes more than enough sense to me

I support the concept as well, but to be fair, none of this includes remediation and required infrastructure work, for which the government/taxpayers are presumably on the hook.
Also, my understanding was the field house would cost around $200 mil, even without the CFL required seating.

[getbak]

Yes, the requested funding for the Fieldhouse (to be located at the Foothills Athletic Park) is $200 million.

That's been the Flames' argument from the beginning... Hey, we're only asking for $200 million from the city (if we ignore the ticket tax and CRL), and that's money the city was going to spend anyway on the fieldhouse (if we ignore the fact that the city hasn't budgeted to spend that money on any long-term plan).

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

With the NFL confirming a link between football and CTE/Brain damage, should the City really be putting money into an arena for a sport that is leading to cognitive disruptions of its athletes?

Well, if that's the case then I demand that gyms and school yards be removed from all schools to protect the developing minds of today's youth from incurring head trauma. Physical activity is entirely too dangerous.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

the 240 million revitalization levy is only going to be hitting those who choose to live/own businesses in close proximity to all the project offers.

Provided it can actually recoup the $240M. Who's holding onto the loan for this money while that happens? Who's responsible for covering the gap if (when) it can't? The majority of the land area that the CRL will be taking up is by the two most valuable buildings on it that wouldn't be paying into it.

The CRL for the East Village is primarily funded by The Bow. The $30M/year or so of property tax it pays is going to recoup the CMLC's costs in remediating land, improving infrastructure and everything else that made development in the area desirable that needed to be paid for. What the Flames are proposing is akin to the CMLC using the CRL for East Village to fund construction of The Bow, rather than use The Bow to fund development of the East Village.

250 mill ticket tax is only for those who want to enjoy the product

So the Flames are covering this cost while the ticket tax repays the loan? Good to know.

Now take into account whatever comes from being a tourist exporter to tourist importer and it makes even more sense. (his words after speaking of at least 7 high profile concerts lost last year due to the saddledomes roof load allowance)

What was the predicted 'tourist gap' of the city for those 7 concerts? Enough to justify the city taking the risk on hundreds of millions of dollars? Doubtful.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

Enjoyed a breakfast event with the COO at the saddledome this morning. He says that regardless of NEXT the city acknowledges a strong need for a field house and it will happen. What would something like this cost if the city built their own?

the 240 million revitalization levy is only going to be hitting those who choose to live/own businesses in close proximity to all the project offers.
250 mill ticket tax is only for those who want to enjoy the product
200 mill from the flames organization
and the 200 mill from the city (minus whatever they would be spending to build their own....)

so my question is if the city were to build a 50-75 million dollar facility without NEXT, the actual amount being asked from taxpayers is 125-150 million of the 900 or so million.

Now take into account whatever comes from being a tourist exporter to tourist importer and it makes even more sense. (his words after speaking of at least 7 high profile concerts lost last year due to the saddledomes roof load allowance)

The more I hear the more in favor of the project I am. I do not like the designs however the concept makes more than enough sense to me

The problem with that math is that the CRL needs to cover much more than just the building. Add another $250 million (approx)for other infrastructure upgrades
, and it becomes $500 million. Now you are left trying to pay back $500 million with only a small chunk of land left, and all of the best land gone used by the building and not paying property tax. It doesn't work.

[OldDutch]

I don't have an issue with the concept. I just have an issue with the execution. For the money needed, saying hey give us half a billion in various ways, just trust me buddy is a non starter.

I still cannot get over how poorly communicated and executed this plan has been. It was almost like they expected the city to roll over and sign. If the COO can give you hard details why can't Ken King give them to us?

Sorry I am a little cheesed that I have to slice and support a business case 6 ways from Sunday for $100K at my job, whereas the Flames basically want half a billion on a napkin.

Do your homework Ken and get back to us when you are ready.

[RM14]

...and calling the Bow a piece of the East Village is not very genuine. I know that it officially is considered East Village, but the city drew up a pretty silly boundary in order to include the bow property in the east village CRL to make the project look a lot stronger than it is.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by RM14

...and calling the Bow a piece of the East Village is not very genuine. I know that it officially is considered East Village, but the city drew up a pretty silly boundary in order to include the bow property in the east village CRL to make the project look a lot stronger than it is.

Nothing about it is East Village, it was just the key piece of line drawing that the CRL needed to make the project viable, nobody ever pretended otherwise. The only reason they got to include it was because it wasn't constructed at the time so it wouldn't affect the current property tax levels of the city. There is quite a bit of that CRL that isn't in the East Village.

Now imagine the s CRL without The Bow and with the majority of land in the East Village being taken up by something else that won't contribute into the CRL. That is what the Flames are proposing as a good deal that 'will only affect those in the vicinity'.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Now imagine the s CRL without The Bow and with the majority of land in the East Village being taken up by something else that won't contribute into the CRL. That is what the Flames are proposing as a good deal that 'will only affect those in the vicinity'.

Like the Library and National Music Center?

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by RM14

Like the Library and National Music Center?

Do both of them combined have the footprint the size of either of arena or stadium nevermind both? They're smaller in a larger CRL area, and are the kinds of things you should help fund with a CRL while private interests can build their own.

[powderjunkie]

Any idea who the 7 concerts/events were? I'm guessing some were probably Vancouver shows that didn't even go to Edmonton (ie. unlikely they would have come here).

The vast majority of any so-called tourist gap spending is going to major hotel chains and restaurants, and therefore not really pumped back into the community. Aside from a few tangible dollars through the hotel tax, this money wouldn't even register on any radar.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Any idea who the 7 concerts/events were? I'm guessing some were probably Vancouver shows that didn't even go to Edmonton (ie. unlikely they would have come here).

The vast majority of any so-called tourist gap spending is going to major hotel chains and restaurants, and therefore not really pumped back into the community. Aside from a few tangible dollars through the hotel tax, this money wouldn't even register on any radar.

Off the top of my head

- Madona
- One Direction
- Taylor Swift
- Rhianna (not 100% on this one)


It is not just the small percentage of hotel tax. It is that hotel room actually being booked or that restaurant being eaten at. In the grand scale, such a project would make inner city business more successful which translates to a long chain of positive economics for the city.

[Reneeee]

Basically anything Commonwealth hosts we don't have the same ability.

AC/DC, Beyonce, FIFA Women's World Cup. All big revenue losses aside from maybe AC/DC

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Funkhouser]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

Off the top of my head

- Madona
- One Direction
- Taylor Swift
- Rhianna (not 100% on this one)


It is not just the small percentage of hotel tax. It is that hotel room actually being booked or that restaurant being eaten at. In the grand scale, such a project would make inner city business more successful which translates to a long chain of positive economics for the city.

I know cirque du soleil skips the saddledome due to infrastructure issues