[PGT] Sharks 7 Flames 4

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by wired

The point others are making....is the Flames do not have a 1st round pick this year, or a 2nd, or a 3rd.

So, so, so stupid. Hamonic, no matter how good he may amount to be, is never gonna be worth a 1st rounder when you are only a playoff bubble team.

Treliving incredibly misjudged the potential in his coach and roster. You don't trade a 1st unless you're a division contender pushing to be a cup contender, or already a cup contender. Just so dumb that he set the franchise back for this upcoming draft. Gonna be a tough pill to swallow if Isles get a top 3 pick from it.

He better have learned his lesson, and does work this off season to makeup for it and realign the ship forward. Hope his scouts have great savvy also to find some gems with the later draft picks they do have.

[81MC]

The higher the flames draft pick, the better. I hope it’s top three. If we are not getting it, it’s best it goes outside of conference and not fall to Coilers/Nucks/Yotes

[DeluxeMoustache]

It took the whole team working together to screw that one up.

Hamonic basically assisted on the goal Tierney set up. Hamilton was very bad on the goal letting Kane get position.

And no matter how many times the commentators tell us Mike Smith is great at handling the puck, it causes more harm than good.

Last night he was returning to the net from having turned over the puck and wasn’t set for the shot.

When he has time with the puck and makes a long bomb pass to the winger up in the neutral zone, how many times does that winger actually have teammates near him? Rarely. It’s usually a guy who is outnumbered and turns it over. Happened again last night.

And breaking out? When he decides he wants to start it, the team grinds to a halt and waits to see what he is going to do. Why? Because it’s not a set play. And it gives the other team time to get in defensive position.

Mike Smith, quit reading your press. You are not adding anything to the team by overhandling the puck.

[Flamenspiel]

dp

[Rtown]

After sleeping on it, I really can't help but laugh this morning.

Here's Evander Kane, who the Flames had been "linked" to at various points over the last couple months. Hotly debated on here whether the Flames should make a play for him or not.
Then at the trade deadline, some feel he was "scooped" out from under the Flames noses by the Sharks (again depending on which side of the debate you sit on)
Then, in his first game against the Flames since the TDL, after being good, not great for the Sharks, he lights it up scoring two goals, and half the Flames fans go "told ya so!"

THEN Rick Ball mentions in kind of a surprised tone that "Evander Kane's never scored a hat trick? Huh, who woulda thunk." Welp, gee, thanks Rick.
So of course shortly there after Kane pots the hatty, hilarity ensues.
Not even Hollywood could script this, cuz even Hollywood wouldn't have added the 4th goal (was gonna make a Joe Thornton joke here, buts it's a family show)for good measure.
Maybe Kane really wanted to come to Calgary and this was his way of showing up Treliving?

Either way, pretty funny when you look at the whole picture.

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by 81MC

The higher the flames draft pick, the better. I hope it’s top three. If we are not getting it, it’s best it goes outside of conference and not fall to Coilers/Nucks/Yotes

We've already dealt the pick to the Islanders this year

So it doesn't really matter where we finish I'm afraid...

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Joborule

So, so, so stupid. Hamonic, no matter how good he may amount to be, is never gonna be worth a 1st rounder when you are only a playoff bubble team.

Treliving incredibly misjudged the potential in his coach and roster. You don't trade a 1st unless you're a division contender pushing to be a cup contender, or already a cup contender. Just so dumb that he set the franchise back for this upcoming draft. Gonna be a tough pill to swallow if Isles get a top 3 pick from it.

He better have learned his lesson, and does work this off season to makeup for it and realign the ship forward. Hope his scouts have great savvy also to find some gems with the later draft picks they do have.

Hamonic was signed for 3 years at a 3.75 million dollar cap hit. That gave the Flames a solid top 4 dman during their window to win. That mid round first likely isn't even playing over those 3 years or likely isn't making a huge difference. There's a chance he never amounts to anything. You are far more likely to have Hamonic making an impact on the club than whoever that pick is. This idea that they have to be a cup contender makes no sense. He had 3 years on his deal and could grow with the team. You really think this mid first we are missing out on was gonna be the savior to turn this team around? I fully agree it sucks not having a first this year but in the big scheme of things it's likely not changing all that much. If we got a player as good as Hamonic with that pick we would be thrilled.

[DomeFoam]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Hamonic was signed for 3 years at a 3.75 million dollar cap hit. That gave the Flames a solid top 4 dman during their window to win. That mid round first likely isn't even playing over those 3 years or likely isn't making a huge difference. There's a chance he never amounts to anything. You are far more likely to have Hamonic making an impact on the club than whoever that pick is. This idea that they have to be a cup contender makes no sense. He had 3 years on his deal and could grow with the team. You really think this mid first we are missing out on was gonna be the savior to turn this team around? I fully agree it sucks not having a first this year but in the big scheme of things it's likely not changing all that much. If we got a player as good as Hamonic with that pick we would be thrilled.

Picks are currency. Could've acquired a top line winger for the pick.

[Flash Walken]

If you're a fpames fan and you don't see how detrimental constantly dealing away draft picks is to your organization over both the long and short term, you will never, ever get it and find yourself surprised every year the team sucks.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

If you're a fpames fan and you don't see how detrimental constantly dealing away draft picks is to your organization over both the process ng and she's at term, you will never, ever get it and find yourself surprised every year the team sucks.

But...but...it worked so well in the Sutter years...

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

If you're a fpames fan and you don't see how detrimental constantly dealing away draft picks is to your organization over both the process ng and she's at term, you will never, ever get it and find yourself surprised every year the team sucks.

I do think the time was right to make a big splash and help move this team into the position of being a contender.

The problem is Treliving used those trade chips on a player that really hasn't positively influenced the team's on-ice performance. The pieces should have been used for a right winger.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Joborule

So, so, so stupid. Hamonic, no matter how good he may amount to be, is never gonna be worth a 1st rounder when you are only a playoff bubble team.

Treliving incredibly misjudged the potential in his coach and roster. You don't trade a 1st unless you're a division contender pushing to be a cup contender, or already a cup contender. Just so dumb that he set the franchise back for this upcoming draft. Gonna be a tough pill to swallow if Isles get a top 3 pick from it.

He better have learned his lesson, and does work this off season to makeup for it and realign the ship forward. Hope his scouts have great savvy also to find some gems with the later draft picks they do have.

I know the optics wouldn't be great, but the cost is sunk. The best thing that could happen if the Flames miss the playoffs is the Islanders winning the draft lottery with the pick. That keeps the good players out East and potentially moves the Oilers and Canucks down the draft ladder.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Hamonic was signed for 3 years at a 3.75 million dollar cap hit. That gave the Flames a solid top 4 dman during their window to win. That mid round first likely isn't even playing over those 3 years or likely isn't making a huge difference. There's a chance he never amounts to anything. You are far more likely to have Hamonic making an impact on the club than whoever that pick is. This idea that they have to be a cup contender makes no sense. He had 3 years on his deal and could grow with the team. You really think this mid first we are missing out on was gonna be the savior to turn this team around? I fully agree it sucks not having a first this year but in the big scheme of things it's likely not changing all that much. If we got a player as good as Hamonic with that pick we would be thrilled.

You know why the Flames have no blue chip forward prospects? Because we don't value draft picks enough.

In this salary cap era, if you want to build a contender, you have to build from within. Holding out hopes that you can trade your way and sign your way to a contender is futile, and outdated. Teams don't let go out key impact players. And when they do hit the market, they cost a lot of money, plus may not even be interested in joining your team/city.

Considering you have to give up assets in order to gain assets, and spend lots of money which takes away available money, getting impact players via transaction really should be done to supplement a team that is looking to put itself over the edge, rather than a strategy in team building. You have to build your team through the cheapest format possible, and that is through smart drafting and development. Contending teams are built from within.

Since the Flames have a defensive prospective base that is expected to be suffice NHL players in the near future - and I would say should be at the level of Hamonic, if not more for some - was there really a need to bring in Hamonic on a value deal at the cost of giving up prospective players that could provide as much, if not more than Hamonic has or will? And if we were going to trade the pick anyway, could it not have been used on an offensive player instead since that was the team bigger need, and still is?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Hamonic was signed for 3 years at a 3.75 million dollar cap hit. That gave the Flames a solid top 4 dman during their window to win. That mid round first likely isn't even playing over those 3 years or likely isn't making a huge difference. There's a chance he never amounts to anything. You are far more likely to have Hamonic making an impact on the club than whoever that pick is. This idea that they have to be a cup contender makes no sense. He had 3 years on his deal and could grow with the team. You really think this mid first we are missing out on was gonna be the savior to turn this team around? I fully agree it sucks not having a first this year but in the big scheme of things it's likely not changing all that much. If we got a player as good as Hamonic with that pick we would be thrilled.

They dealt three top picks for Hamonic, not just one. The Flames thought they had a window to contend and so gave up a chunk of their future. Do you see this team contending?

Following your logic, you’d trade every draft pick for middle of the roster players.

I agree that Hamonic is not a rental which is some saving grace. However even a rental is good for one playoff run. Flames now will get a maximum of 2 playoff runs out of Hamonic and his existing deal, and gave up more valuable picks than playoff teams who “rent” someone.

The consistent trading away of top picks has certainly dimmed the future of this version of the Flames. It is a shame because Treliving stepped into a team with some very good young talent.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

If you're a fpames fan and you don't see how detrimental constantly dealing away draft picks is to your organization over both the long and short term, you will never, ever get it and find yourself surprised every year the team sucks.

I am assuming the blame lies with the ownership, but the Flames are always trying to take shortcuts. It's like the HS students that used to write book reports using Cole's Notes - yeah, you can probably get by, but you are never going to excel. That's our professional hockey team - holding up the fat middle of the bell curve...

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I know the optics wouldn't be great, but the cost is sunk. The best thing that could happen if the Flames miss the playoffs is the Islanders winning the draft lottery with the pick. That keeps the good players out East and potentially moves the Oilers and Canucks down the draft ladder.

It's a fair point but having said that, the media, other fans, and even our own fans would have a field day with it if we ended up trading the #1 overall pick. Because of that, I'd much rather not "win" the lottery, just for the small benefit of moving the Oilers down from 7 to 8. It's such a minor benefit given it may not even make a difference who they draft...

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I am assuming the blame lies with the ownership, but the Flames are always trying to take shortcuts. It's like the HS students that used to write book reports using Cole's Notes - yeah, you can probably get by, but you are never going to excel. That's our professional hockey team - holding up the fat middle of the bell curve...

I am not sure I agree with this.
I think the best course of action is to build all three ways:
1) Draft and develop;
2) Trade for controlled players;
3) Sign UFAs.

In that order.

Suggesting the Flames are taking shortcuts is not true, in my opinion.

Now, the debate is whether the trades were right or wrong, but you cannot 100% build through the draft. You need a bit of each one.

In a perfect world your drafted players mature over time.
Here we have the young core of Monahan, Johnny, Tkachuk, Bennett and Ferland, with Brodie, Backlund and Kulak also home grown, and providing benefit (I know, Brodie is debatable here). Jankowski looks like he will be a good homegrown pick as well. That is 9 by my count. Gio is really homegrown as well, despite not being drafted at all.

We then supplement with trades like Dougie and Hamonic, who were both on decent contracts, and are young, which is wise and beneficial if you think your team is at the right place in its progression. I know this is debatable also, but I really think most expected we would be better this year, and that Hamonic would help that progression. What we did not do, and what would be foolish, would be trading 1st round picks for aging players, in the hopes that would push us over the top.

The decision here is the known vs. the unknown. Do you trade a pick which could be Zachary Senyshyn for Dougie Hamilton? Yes. Every time. Do you trade a pick which could be Mathew Barzal for Dougie Hamliton? I don't know. Hindsight, any team would love to have Mathew Barzal, but he is exactly 72 games into his career now. Dougie Hamilton has played 413 games in his career, and is 20th overall in defensemen points since being drafted, and 15th overall since that trade. I think that is still a good trade. If you are waiting for defensemen to mature, then who would we have playing in the spots of Dougie and Hamonic? Maybe Andersson is ready for Hamonic's. Maybe. But I am not sure I would have taken that risk last summer, with the expected projection of this team. Expected being the key word.

A 15th overall pick has a 41.7% chance of playing 100 NHL games and a 16.7% chance of being a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman. Dougie was already better than that.

I have no problem with trading 3rds for older players, like the Smith trade.

Then there is the 3rd way to build, which is supplementing with UFAs. This should be the final, push you over the top option, or buy you time for your own players to develop. In my opinion signing Frolik was good, signing Brouwer made some sense in theory, but has most certainly not panned out in the slightest. We have not blown the bank on any aging UFAs, which would have been a huge mistake.

I don't think any team has just drafted and waited, without adding via options 2 and 3, and I don't think you can. Otherwise you could be waiting forever, as once your oldest players are at their peak, or beyond, the youngest are not yet ready.

[Yoho]

/\ no team except the Jets.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Yoho

/\ no team except the Jets.

I knew someone was going to use them!

I did start to compare, and they had surprisingly fewer home grown draft picks than I thought. By my count, they had 9 or 10 home grown contributors on their roster. We have 8 or 9. It was not as far off as I thought it might be, but I ran out of time to do a proper analysis as I am at work. I could not compare the Jets' trades, as I simply did not have the time, and did not want to do a half-assed comparison.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Joborule

So, so, so stupid. Hamonic, no matter how good he may amount to be, is never gonna be worth a 1st rounder when you are only a playoff bubble team.

Treliving incredibly misjudged the potential in his coach and roster. You don't trade a 1st unless you're a division contender pushing to be a cup contender, or already a cup contender. Just so dumb that he set the franchise back for this upcoming draft. Gonna be a tough pill to swallow if Isles get a top 3 pick from it.

I love Hamonic, but the logic put out right here is undeniable. To have it not be lottery protected is something else too. I'm not unhappy we have Hamonic - he's everything I want in a Calgary Flame player moving forward, and I think him wearing an "A" over Brouwer would be an improvement. That said, the cost of that acquisition when you look at the roster spot he should be filling (#4 dman), you can't reconcile that.

But hey, missing the playoffs means we get to keep our 2020 2nd round pick as the conditions on the Mike Smith trade won't be met, which means the 3rd rounder doesn't become a 2nd rounder.

...that's uh...a positive, right?