[Signing] Lightning sign Shattenkirk (1yr, $1.75 mil)

[Erick Estrada]

Hard not to like this signing if you are a Lightning fan. Let's not forget Michael Stone was scheduled to make $3.5 million this season so this is a very good value contract relative to what depth defensemen are making. I don't pretend to know where they plan on slotting him in the lineup but he's a guy that you can move around in the case of injuries.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This is a ridiculous, utterly revisionist and completely unsupportable position. Shattenkirk was a top pairing defenseman until he got to Washington. Saying he was "always a number 5"... it's just totally insane. This is like looking at the last few years of Heatley's career and saying "well he was always a bottom six forward".

Pietrangelo and Bouwmeester were the Blues' top pair for his entire tenure there. How can you say he was a top pairing defenseman when he never played on his team's top pairing? It didn't take long for him to be surpassed by rookie Parayko, either, on their second pair.

Shattenkirk is a very talented offensive defenseman. Like I said, he was a #4D, and on a more talented blueline a #5D. This carried over to his tenure in Washinton, where he was placed on the clear third pair with Brooks Orpik - if he were a top pairing defenseman he would have spent time on a team's top pairing.

As for your chart, that is an all situations chart. Shattenkirk was on the Blues' #1 PP (and deservedly so) in that time. But when we talk about top pairing or bottom pairing that really has no bearing - we could replace Giordano with Kylington on the top PP and possibly improve our PP - but that wouldn't make Kylington a top pairing defenseman until and unless his pairing is a top pairing at ES.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Nothing you're saying makes any sense. On average, Shattenkirk's TOI was top 2 level throughout his last 3 years in St. Louis, and he produced top pairing quality results in those years. Shattenkirk was a top pairing quality defenseman for a pretty solid multi-year prime, and then started to decline towards the end of his St. Louis tenure. The fact that Parayko surpassed him doesn't change that, it just tells you how good Parayko is.

And how far he's actually declined is unclear - he might be reliable a bottom pairing defenseman now who can still chip in on a PP2 unit (in which case 1.75M is still cheap), but we won't know until we see if he can bounce back. Obviously NYR wasn't the right spot for him.

[activeStick]

That's a darn good signing that the Lightning have been able to secure due to success.

[savardandjokinen]

Shattenkirk was always a #2/3. His production speaks for itself

Today, he may be a 4/5, this year will most likely determine what pairing he is

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Nothing you're saying makes any sense. On average, Shattenkirk's TOI was top 2 level throughout his last 3 years in St. Louis,

That is because he the point man on his team's top power play unit. Which doesn't have any correlation to what pairing a player belongs on at 5v5.

Here is how the 5v5 TOI bared out:

18:49 - Pietrangelo
18:04 - Jay Bouwmeester
16:13 - Colton Parayko (and remember, he was a rookie in 2015-16 and a sophomore in 2016-17, not a highly rated prospect prior to that either)
16:02 - Kevin Shattenkirk
14:31 - Joel Edmonson
14:24 - Karl Gunnarsson

This places Shattenkirk, at best, as his team's #3 defenseman (the anchor of the second pair), and more realistically as a #4 defenseman overall (which is what I said). And he was the Capitals' #5 defenseman as well (unless you want to argue Orpik-Shattenkirk was a second or first pair).

and he produced top pairing quality results in those years.

You know as well as I do how flawed context stats like OZS% etc are, but it was pretty clear there was a (sensible) push to put Shattenkirk in more offensive situations while their actual top pair was in more of an actual top pair role.

And I never said Shattenkirk's offensive value was not ultra high-end. I said there's a difference between offense and overall impact.

Can't believe I'm the one needing to be arguing this, I'm one of the people on this board that values offense more than most. But offense from the relatively sheltered second pairing does not equate to top pairing quality.

The fact that Parayko surpassed him doesn't change that, it just tells you how good Parayko is.

A single team's depth is naturally not indicative of a player's overall value, and I am not arguing that Shattenkirk was a #5 more than he was a ~#4 (you latched on to the #5 comment, which was actually more about his tenure in Washington), but he's a player who never once played a top pairing role on his team. Arguing he was a top pairing D, when at best he was a #3 on STL, is asinine. And the fact that a rookie clearly showed more well-roundedness suited to that #3 role, suggests that he was a bit more one dimensional than a strong #3. i.e. a specialist.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Meh... he's not really good anymore. There's a reason why NYR bought him out.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

This places Shattenkirk, at best, as his team's #3 defenseman (the anchor of the second pair), and more realistically as a #4 defenseman overall (which is what I said).

This is just an insane position to take. The fact that a guy gets more PP minutes, which are then soaked up by inferior players at even strength, does not make him a worse even strength defenseman. It means that the coach is trying to maximize the possibility of scoring on the power play. Shattenkirk was still playing over 22 minutes a night, he was just being deployed properly.

... Oh, and I don't know what season those numbers were from, because the chart I posted is 5v5 ice time. Based on the average TOI of all defenders across the league, in those 3 seasons, he averaged top pairing minutes (barely, but still). Even if he weren't, the best argument you could make would be that he was the best #3 defenseman in the league, given that he was clearly performing like a 1-2 guy in the minutes he got.

And I never said Shattenkirk's offensive value was not ultra high-end. I said there's a difference between offense and overall impact.

Except that while his shot creation results were great, his shot suppression stats were even better. I'm sure you can try to explain some of that by pointing to St. Louis being a good defensive team in general, but nowhere near all of it.

A single team's depth is naturally not indicative of a player's overall value, and I am not arguing that Shattenkirk was a #5 more than he was a ~#4

You're incredibly wrong either way.

[RedHawk12]

If you're a consistently good team, players will want to play for you, even at a discount salary.

Shattenkirk is not a #1 or #2. He certainly wasn't worth what he was getting paid in New York. But Shattenkirk at 1.5 and in the role he is expected to play in Tampa (#4/#5, PP specialist) is a darn good deal.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by memphusk

Ahahahahaahshbla. He's a plug. Good to see Tampa keep going for a cup with the same guys New York can't win with. Keep it up boys!!

The difference is, Tampa is using them as support players. New York was building around them.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This is just an insane position to take. The fact that a guy gets more PP minutes, which are then soaked up by inferior players at even strength, does not make him a worse even strength defenseman. It means that the coach is trying to maximize the possibility of scoring on the power play. Shattenkirk was still playing over 22 minutes a night, he was just being deployed properly.

... Oh, and I don't know what season those numbers were from, because the chart I posted is 5v5 ice time. Based on the average TOI of all defenders across the league, in those 3 seasons, he averaged top pairing minutes (barely, but still). Even if he weren't, the best argument you could make would be that he was the best #3 defenseman in the league, given that he was clearly performing like a 1-2 guy in the minutes he got.

Except that while his shot creation results were great, his shot suppression stats were even better. I'm sure you can try to explain some of that by pointing to St. Louis being a good defensive team in general, but nowhere near all of it.

You're incredibly wrong either way.

Basing your opinions entirely on charts is bad enough, but then being a complete ass hat about it when others disagree with you, is what really sets you apart.

Shattenkirk used to get top pairing minutes because he put up points, and because (as a result) he got tons of PP time. But he could NEVER play defense. And his inability to play defense eventually caught up with him and his ice time was adjusted.

He is what he is: a purely offensive defenseman who is a defensive liability. And he was always thus, though for a while, his coaches no doubt assumed/hoped that the rest of his game would catch up. It never did.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Funnily enough, "Dany heatley wasn't a first line player" is also an actual opinion he holds.

Dany Heatley was a f'ing ALL-STAR

#AllStar
#50in07


https://youtu.be/EhLMfPFBpno

Edited to add:
(I apparently don't know how to embed YouTube links, but I'm gonna post the link anyways, because the video is money).

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Killer value as a 56 pt (career high) d-man he was when the Rangers signed him for 4x 6.650 to be their #1 D.

Last 2 seasons -14 23 pts and -15 28 pts. He has the 12th worst +/- over the last 2 years for all NHL d-men.

How about that plug Drew Doughty? What’s his numbers look like?

[GullFoss]

I like when two posters get into a valid debate and both make interesting points in defense of their position. I also like it when they treat each other like dog #### while debating

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This is just an insane position to take. The fact that a guy gets more PP minutes, which are then soaked up by inferior players at even strength, does not make him a worse even strength defenseman.

Know what's actually an insane position to take?

Inferring that Kevin Shattenkirk is a superior even strength defenseman than Alex Pietrangelo, on the basis that he got more PP minutes.

It means that the coach is trying to maximize the possibility of scoring on the power play. Shattenkirk was still playing over 22 minutes a night, he was just being deployed properly.

Since we're talking about the same general time span, Dennis Wideman, circa 2014-15 logged 24:39 a night. It's easy to handwave his underlying numbers as a result of playing with Kris Russell.

So the question is this:

Does logging almost 25 minutes (and 26:29 come playoff time) a night make Wideman a top pairing defenseman that year? The year he had 56 points.

Or is it possible that the Flames' top pairing that year was Giordano-Brodie, and eventually Brodie-Engelland after Gio's injury?

... Oh, and I don't know what season those numbers were from, because the chart I posted is 5v5 ice time.

Look at your chart again. The TOI section clearly states "All-Situations".

My numbers are sourced from Natural Stat Trick, and represent 2014-17, the exact same time span as your chart.

Even if he weren't, the best argument you could make would be that he was the best #3 defenseman in the league, given that he was clearly performing like a 1-2 guy in the minutes he got.

Except that while his shot creation results were great, his shot suppression stats were even better. I'm sure you can try to explain some of that by pointing to St. Louis being a good defensive team in general, but nowhere near all of it.

Kevin Shattenkirk was a successful player in the second pair role he played, and perhaps before Parayko clearly made him expendible he was a decent #3, though it's debatable. But to be a "the best #3 defenseman in the league" you have to be a more versatile player than he has ever been. There are things the numbers can't show you, because they don't track them.

They won't show you shifts where the actual top pair is sent out, break out of the defensive zone, cycle the other team in at the other end, and then go and change on the fly for the second or third pair. This is just one of the many ways coaches shelter their players. True top pairing defensemen, rather than being sheltered, are sent out indiscriminately against anyone and that's never truly been the case with Kevin Shattenkirk. The Blues used him to perfection in an offensive role, but the only year they actually got past the first round with him he was already being utilized less than a rookie was in terms of ice time, and again, in a far more offensively skewed role:

2015-16 STL Blues Playoffs Defenseman usage



And that's how he should be used, really. Have three, or four better defensemen on your team and let him loose offensively.

[Johnny Makarov]

So I guess Tampa wants to get swept in 3 this year after winning the president's trophy again.

[jlh2640]

That is an upgrade for them

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

That is an upgrade for them

Not for the playoffs.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Hard not to like this signing if you are a Lightning fan. Let's not forget Michael Stone was scheduled to make $3.5 million this season so this is a very good value contract relative to what depth defensemen are making. I don't pretend to know where they plan on slotting him in the lineup but he's a guy that you can move around in the case of injuries.

Let's not forget Shattenkirk got bought out from a $6M per year contract. What does Stone have to do with Shattenkirk?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Let's not forget Shattenkirk got bought out from a $6M per year contract. What does Stone have to do with Shattenkirk?

No kidding. Shattenkirk is nothing more than a pp specialist at this point. He is the opposite of Stone. Well, not exactly, because Stone wasn't good at anything really.