Climate change and human responsibility

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by troutman

It was not capitalism, but inter-governmental action informed by science that is resolving the ozone layer problem:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_layer#Depletion

In both cases there were viable alternatives.

That's the current problem with fossil fuels. TINA. Even the most aggressive carbon reduction programs acknowledge that a lot of carbon-based fuel still needs to be consumed.

Switching to NG from coal will help tremendously. Renewable is mostly useless. Hydro has its own problems, and is probably next on the TIDES list of power sources to vilify.

Nuclear power would help a lot, but that's not happening.

This is the premise people keep thinking:

"I can maintain my current lifestyle, everything will just be electrified instead."

Which of course is patently false, and will always be false.

No one is going to stop plane travel, for instance. The world is totally dependent on computers, which demands continuous, stable 24/7 power.

Once again, I present this:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...m-and-em-coal/

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

They may be the world leader in deploying solar, but it dsoesn't matter if their net emmisions are still rising, which they are.

Yep, and solar remains such a small part of global electricity generation that even when leading the world (by far), it's dwarfed by increased Chinese coal generation.




https://chinaenergyportal.org/en/201...gy-statistics/



The initial data doesn't yet split natural gas from coal but if the split is like 2017, it means over 300 TWh of new coal generation was added in one year.


https://chinaenergyportal.org/en/201...-of-june-2018/

[Flamenspiel]

nm

[Ozy_Flame]

I honestly just want to press the Climate Change issue on every political party at this point as the most pressing issue; jobs, economy and social issues are all secondary to this. This is about environmental threats to our way of life, property, community and physical well being as humans. Nothing should be more important.

Potentially having continuous rolling heat waves, enormous storms, blackouts, wildfires, drought, fresh water scarcity, and the resulting political chaos will happen in my lifetime (and it's already started).

[peter12]

Ban cars in urban areas, invest in urban public transit, build a bunch of nuclear power plants.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Potentially having continuous rolling heat waves, enormous storms, blackouts, wildfires, drought, fresh water scarcity, and the resulting political chaos will happen in my lifetime (and it's already started).

Yeah but... you know... elsewhere. We're probably good. So, just don't worry about it so much, okay?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by accord1999

The initial data doesn't yet split natural gas from coal but if the split is like 2017, it means over 300 TWh of new coal generation was added in one year.

https://chinaenergyportal.org/en/201...-of-june-2018/

Canada has about 670TWh of production, so in one year, China installed half as much coal production as our entire country has. I think people miss the scale of China's emmisions and how important it is for them to stop building coal plants. Nothing we do will counter that increase, short of not existing.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Canada has about 670TWh of production, so in one year, China installed half as much coal production as our entire country has. I think people miss the scale of China's emmisions and how important it is for them to stop building coal plants. Nothing we do will counter that increase, short of not existing.

It is completely true that basically nothing the Western world can do will offset what is happening in China.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Yeah but... you know... elsewhere. We're probably good. So, just don't worry about it so much, okay?

I know you're being sarcastic, but I am already dreading our air quality levels this summer with the growing intensity of BC wildfires. It's becoming pretty regular to have near-choking levels of smoke passing through Alberta for weeks at at a time.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by peter12

It is completely true that basically nothing the Western world can do will offset what is happening in China.

"Well, to start we could stop selling them coal"....is what I just typed out before seeing the first table here:


https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/facts/coal/20071


And seeing that, oh, we only produce 0.8% of global coal. So I guess that won't do much either....

[snootchiebootchies]

Originally Posted by troutman

It was not capitalism, but inter-governmental action informed by science that is resolving the ozone layer problem:

I believe that if we were trying to solve the ozone or acid rain problem today, we would have many conservative governments arguing that these problems are hoaxes or fake news.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by snootchiebootchies

I believe that if we were trying to solve the ozone or acid rain problem today, we would have many conservative governments arguing that these problems are hoaxes or fake news.

We would probably have many leftist governments also arguing that the only solution is wealth redistribution taxes and providing cash to lower income persons regardless of whether they actually curb CFC usage.

Good thing we didn't have such extreme views back then. Of course, as others noted, there were relatively easy alternatives to using CFCs and other ozone depleting chemicals, so it was relatively easy to get all sides on board.

Climate change is very real, but I think the bigger issue is politicians (left and right) are using it to promote their agendas (socialism, populism, etc.) or only attacking industries in areas where people don't vote for them (ie: the relatively free ride the auto sector is getting compared to the energy sector).

[snootchiebootchies]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

We would probably have many leftist governments also arguing that the only solution is wealth redistribution taxes and providing cash to lower income persons regardless of whether they actually curb CFC usage.

Good thing we didn't have such extreme views back then. Of course, as others noted, there were relatively easy alternatives to using CFCs and other ozone depleting chemicals, so it was relatively easy to get all sides on board.

Climate change is very real, but I think the bigger issue is politicians (left and right) are using it to promote their agendas (socialism, populism, etc.) or only attacking industries in areas where people don't vote for them (ie: the relatively free ride the auto sector is getting compared to the energy sector).

For the acid rain problem, there weren't easy alternatives. Many coal plants had to capture the sulphur dioxide from the combustion exhaust stream.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

https://www.history.com/topics/natur...climate-change

A real simple timeline on the history of climate change. In a nutshell, we should have known we'd be altering the climate as far back as 1895. However, it wasn't until 1930 one scientist suggested we were doing just that. It took until 2006, when IPCC finally suggested it was "very likely" humans were causing climate change.

Lots of reading on their website:

IPCC

The discussion around "are humans causing climate change?" should be long over. Reducing carbon emissions is essential and will be ongoing, but humans should also start focusing on CO2 conversion at this point. And some are doing that. We simply reacted too slow and now it's a matter of dealing with climate change and slowing it down as opposed to stopping it.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sorry, what are China's commitments? I'm pretty sure last I heard their plan was to commit to nothing before 2030, and maybe do something after that.

China's Intended Nationally Determined Contributions for the Paris Agreement:





https://www4.unfccc.int/sites/ndcsta...Submission.pdf

[burn_this_city]

Nuclear power grid and carbon capture is really our only hope. The same people braying about climate change also made nuclear power a political landmine. We need fusion/fission now more than ever. Direct air capture powered by nuclear reactors on a global scale. Solar and wind destroy ecology.

[Fuzz]

Right, so no goals before 2030, with a peak then, which means they intend to continue increasing emissions until then. I suspect they can achieve 1,2 and 4, but will have a hell of a time doing 3. And really, item 3 is still 80% fossil fuels in energy. Canada is already at 75%. I suspect we will be lower by then.



https://knoema.com/atlas/Canada/Foss...gy-consumption

[Fuzz]

I think one thing China shows us is the futility of it all. If they, with a command economy, cheap labour, lax environmental standards and bottomless pockets are really strugling to expand their economy in a green way, indicated by the continual construction of coal plants, can't manage to put a dent in their emissions, what chance does the rest of the wold have?


Our only real hope is geoengineering, CO2 storage and somehow getting nuclear back in the mix. Cutting emissions in any meaningful way is not going to do it.

[transplant99]

Way way off topic


Im really unaware, but why is nuclear energy not more of an option?

It seems it may still hold a stigma because of 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl etc?

One would have to believe that technological advances in the last 40 years would surely see such accidents far less likely to happen no? There must be better ways of dealing with the radioactive waste than that long ago as well...no?

Or is it just so cost prohibitive to build now?

As burn this city points out, it is the same genre of enviro crazies screaming and yelling about climate change today, that virtually shut down the most efficient and environment friendly energy source ever known to man through the late 60's and into the 70's.

Because all these things are man made/developed, there will always be imperfections/accidents no matter what. However the planet itself would likely be way better off without the massive spike of fossil fuels the last 4 decades, that was needed to replace what just a handful of reactors can supply...no?

[snootchiebootchies]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Nuclear power grid and carbon capture is really our only hope. The same people braying about climate change also made nuclear power a political landmine. We need fusion/fission now more than ever. Direct air capture powered by nuclear reactors on a global scale. Solar and wind destroy ecology.

Don't count out hydrogen as a potential energy source. Lots of challenges for sure but much higher public acceptance than nuclear energy.