The intellectual dark web

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do you have a source for this?



It's not a matter of deserving. But from what I've read on the subject, these factors correlate strongly to social outcomes:

Marriage status of parents
Education of parents
Affluence of parents
Impulse control
Cultural valuation of education
IQ
Peer group

If you have the time, do give a listen to the CBC interview I linked to - it deals with some of this stuff.

Again, this is just such a dishonest attempt at debate. No one is disputing that all of these categories play a significant role in social outcomes, we're questioning why certain groups are disproportionately represented in the the negative margins of these categories, because biologically it doesn't make sense that the amount of melanin in your skin would somehow correlate with a weaker desire to form and maintain a nuclear family.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

No it isn't. Otherwise there would be almost no whites experiencing poor outcomes in society. Which we both know isn't true.

Economic status is the single biggest factor in poor outcomes. It doesn't even come close.

Here's an interesting statistic: For every dollar of wealth that whites have, Asian households have 83 cents but blacks have 6 cents and Hispanics have 7 cents (US Census Bureau 2014)

I agree with you that economic status is the biggest issue. What is the reason for the gap?

Why are black people, indigenous people, other people of colour, so damn poor in comparison? What is the single biggest reason in your estimation?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Why do people treat this as if it's somehow disputed by the left or "SJWs?" It's incredibly disingenuous.

Not sure why you're quoting me because I was responding to this quote:

Systemic oppression, both historic and ongoing is BY FAR BY FAR BY FAR the biggest factor contributing to bad outcomes, hence why it gets the most focus. What else even comes close? Every example you can come up with is probably connected or strongly correlated. Poverty. Health outcomes. You name it.

Icecube is disputing your assertion.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Not sure why you're quoting me because I was responding to this quote:



Icecube is disputing your assertion.

I am?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I haven't read 12 Rules, and I'm no 'fan' of Peterson's.

Wait, you gave a book review 1/5 on content without having actually read the book it’s referring to?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I think he is right, people are giving up religion without fully understanding all the other aspects of it that go along with it. Things like culture, community, ritual and structure. While I fully endorse a society that moves further away for religion, I think there are some unintended voids that need to be addressed or filled - things that atheism will never fully be able to fulfill.

I don't see how a Humanist life is any less "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) than a religious perspective.

There are moments when one feels free from one’s own identification with human limitations and inadequacies. At such moments one imagines that one stands on some spot of a small planet, gazing in amazement at the cold yet profoundly moving beauty of the eternal, the unfathomable; life and death flow into one, and there is neither evolution nor destiny, only being. - Albert E.

http://humanistlife.org.uk/2014/08/1...-and-humanism/

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Why do people treat this as if it's somehow disputed by the left or "SJWs?" It's incredibly disingenuous.

It's because the amount of energy and attention progressives give to condemning racial and gender disparities dwarfs the amount they give to economic disparity by an order of magnitude. Not to mention the unconcealed scorn so many express towards poor whites.

A middle-class, college educated woman in our society has far more status, far more opportunity than a working class male. Try to point this out and just watch the response.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by icecube

Here's an interesting statistic: For every dollar of wealth that whites have, Asian households have 83 cents but blacks have 6 cents and Hispanics have 7 cents (US Census Bureau 2014)

I agree with you that economic status is the biggest issue. What is the reason for the gap?

Why are black people, indigenous people, other people of colour, so damn poor in comparison? What is the single biggest reason in your estimation?

You have to determine where your starting point is. In a country once dominated entirely by whites, blacks had 0 cents to every white dollar so now 6 cents can be seen a progress. Should it be more? Sure but how is that outcome achieved. Blacks started poor and Hispanics come into the country poor. Asians come into the country rich through immigration so that's not a fair comparison.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by icecube

I pose this question to you then. Why is it that black and indigenous people have such a lower economic status and in such massively disproportionate numbers?

What question are you trying to answer - because they both have different responses. I think the issue is you are trying to conflate the two questions into one.

1) Why is society stratified the way it is right now, seemingly along racial lines and what historical factors have played a role in that?
2) Why is there poor social mobility for certain minority groups in 2018?

If you want an answer to question #2, it is going to look a lot like Cliff's answer, with systemic racism notably absent from the list with a notation that poor social mobility and income inequality is a problem that is affecting every single corner of society right now. Any solution that tries to answer that question shouldn't include racial lines.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

A middle-class, college educated woman in our society has far more status, far more opportunity than a working class male. Try to point this out and just watch the response.

I don’t think that is a controversial statement at all.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

What question are you trying to answer - because they both have different responses. I think the issue is you are trying to conflate the two questions into one.

1) Why is society stratified the way it is right now, seemingly along racial lines and what historical factors have played a role in that?
2) Why is there poor social mobility for certain minority groups in 2018?

If you want an answer to question #2, it is going to look a lot like Cliff's answer, with systemic racism notably absent from the list with a notation that poor social mobility and income inequality is a problem that is affecting every single corner of society right now. Any solution that tries to answer that question shouldn't include racial lines.

Unfortunately, systemic racism is far from being a relic of the past that some seem to think it or wish it.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

What question are you trying to answer - because they both have different responses. I think the issue is you are trying to conflate the two questions into one.

1) Why is society stratified the way it is right now, seemingly along racial lines and what historical factors have played a role in that?
2) Why is there poor social mobility for certain minority groups in 2018?

If you want an answer to question #2, it is going to look a lot like Cliff's answer, with systemic racism notably absent from the list with a notation that poor social mobility and income inequality is a problem that is affecting every single corner of society right now. Any solution that tries to answer that question shouldn't include racial lines.

But what if certain historically marginalized groups (black males in the US) have worse social mobility rates than non-marginalized groups (as seems to be strongly suggested by the large new study by Stanford & UCLA)? Would you agree that it is important to ask why this is the case?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

You have to determine where your starting point is. In a country once dominated entirely by whites, blacks had 0 cents to every white dollar so now 6 cents can be seen a progress. Should it be more? Sure but how is that outcome achieved. Blacks started poor and Hispanics come into the country poor. Asians come into the country rich through immigration so that's not a fair comparison.

That is a fair comment re immigrants. It isn’t surprising that, generally speaking, immigrants will be less wealthy than people who were born in state x. However, in Canada and the United States, two of the most marginalized groups (blacks in the US and indigenous persons in Canada) have been there for nearly as long or much longer than whites.

Also, presumably, our goal, idealistic though it may be, is that children born in Canada have the same opportunities for success regardless of how long their families have resided here?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

A middle-class, college educated woman in our society has far more status, far more opportunity than a working class male. Try to point this out and just watch the response.

I guess it depends on your definition of working class. I don't think a woman working in let's say child care or social work has more opportunity and status than an electrician.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

What question are you trying to answer - because they both have different responses. I think the issue is you are trying to conflate the two questions into one.

1) Why is society stratified the way it is right now, seemingly along racial lines and what historical factors have played a role in that?
2) Why is there poor social mobility for certain minority groups in 2018?

If you want an answer to question #2, it is going to look a lot like Cliff's answer, with systemic racism notably absent from the list with a notation that poor social mobility and income inequality is a problem that is affecting every single corner of society right now. Any solution that tries to answer that question shouldn't include racial lines.

That's such an evasive answer.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Makarov

That is a fair comment re immigrants. It isn’t surprising that, generally speaking, immigrants will be less wealthy than people who were born in state x. However, in Canada and the United States, two of the most marginalized groups (blacks in the US and indigenous persons in Canada) have been there for nearly as long or much longer than whites.

Also, presumably, our goal, idealistic though it may be, is that children born in Canada have the same opportunities for success regardless of how long their families have resided here?

I do not think that Blacks in America are marginalized today (this is a point that many disagree). They are getting stronger and stronger in America and while racism certainly still exists, I go back to my equation above of once having 0 cents to now having 6 cents. Change cannot happen over night but over the last 50 years, there have been incredible progress through education, business, arts and entertainment. The fight continues on as 6 cents will one day become 12 cents or 24 cents.

Indigenous people in Canada is an issue I cannot understand in Canada. It is not something I have studied much. I do not know what is holding them back today. Is there more Canada can or should do?

As for the idealistic goal. Being born in Canada is not a good measuring stick. You can be born in Canada poor, you cannot immigrate to Canada poor. So you may have Canadian-born kids of different races in the same grade 9 class learning the same things, taking the same exams, but they may not have the same opportunities going forward.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I do not think that Blacks in America are marginalized today (this is a point that many disagree). They are getting stronger and stronger in America and while racism certainly still exists, I go back to my equation above of once having 0 cents to now having 6 cents. Change cannot happen over night but over the last 50 years, there have been incredible progress through education, business, arts and entertainment. The fight continues on as 6 cents will one day become 12 cents or 24 cents.

It's been around 300 years since black people were first brought over as slaves and you consider 6 cents a sign of progress?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I do not think that Blacks in America are marginalized today (this is a point that many disagree). They are getting stronger and stronger in America and while racism certainly still exists, I go back to my equation above of once having 0 cents to now having 6 cents. Change cannot happen over night but over the last 50 years, there have been incredible progress through education, business, arts and entertainment. The fight continues on as 6 cents will one day become 12 cents or 24 cents.

You and I have completely different standards when it comes to “marginalization”.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Makarov

You and I have completely different standards when it comes to “marginalization”.

Higher rates of incarceration, higher rates of police brutality, higher rates of poverty and poor health, etc., etc. Yep, no marginalization here. Move along, folks.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by rubecube

It's been around 300 years since black people were first brought over as slaves and you consider 6 cents a sign of progress?

It was probably 0 cents the first 250 of those 300 years.

Originally Posted by Makarov

You and I have completely different standards when it comes to “marginalization”.

Originally Posted by rubecube

Higher rates of incarceration, higher rates of police brutality, higher rates of poverty and poor health, etc., etc. Yep, no marginalization here. Move along, folks.

Higher rates than what? Again what is your starting point? Blacks couldn't even use the same bathroom 50 years ago. They would just get lynched in the streets for no reason. A black person born before 1960 in a southern state didn't even have a birth certificate or a legal name. You can't flip a switch and change a white-dominated society for centuries overnight. Blacks are more successful and moving up, they have a foundation to build on. I'm not arguing it's not a struggle or there aren't racists out there, the president being the biggest one.