Star Wars: The Old Republic

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

though I do know that Bioware does keep in touch with it's customers.
.

I suspect it will be EA doing the tech support.

[MaDMaN_26]

lol, Blaster you're such a wacko... you "hate WoW with almost (your) entire being" but its a 8 or a 9 out of 10. Your going to play SWTOR and your even looking forward to it but your terribly disappointed in everything you have tried, they have shown you or announced and in 6 months you will probably be bored of it. I'm not really not sure I have heard/read you say a single positive thing about the game... but it's a 7 out of 10.

I don't hate wow, hell I have 6 level 85's so I'd be a sadist if I did... But anyone that's played that game for years knows there is actually very little to do at end game right now... it takes a few weeks for a serious guild to put new content on farm. Most casual guilds are having troubles getting regulars to bother showing up for raid spots. I actually took a year off and just went back out of curiosity a couple months ago... The new story lines are very weak... no one seems really invested in the "big bad guy", The Lich King was the true Climax of that game and everything that's come after feels like an after thought. They've nerfed the game to the point where most long time players are bored with it... in its current state I'd have troubles giving it a solid 5 and I do not hate wow, I'm a little bored with it to be sure and I think the only reason I still log on at all is due to my previous investment in time and possibly some longing for the good old days when I had a lot of fun playing wow... Giving it a 9/10 in its current state is insane. Having played SWTOR beta it makes playing wow even that much more difficult. I have lost a lot of interest in wow is all and I think they deserve that... they have been very uninspired for quite a while.

Yet I'm sure if I gave SWTOR a 9/10 because I do like the game I'd be a "Fan Boy" and my rating would be eliminated to bring the "sane people only" consensus down to 7/10. How your rating system/opinion is credulous and should be heeded by anyone is beyond me... ...

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

lol, Blaster you're such a wacko... you "hate WoW with almost (your) entire being" but its a 8 or a 9 out of 10. Your going to play SWTOR and your even looking forward to it but your terribly disappointed in everything you have tried, they have shown you or announced and in 6 months you will probably be bored of it. I'm not really not sure I have heard/read you say a single positive thing about the game... but it's a 7 out of 10.

I hate WoW, that doesn't mean I can't deny what it is.

TOR was a game I wanted and expected 10/10 for. Bioware + Star Wars + MMO should get me to 10/10. I don't think ToR is a bad game. I've said that many times. I think it is a Vanilla WoW clone. Vanilla WoW was and is a playable game. I expected them to take what WoW CURRENTLY has and make it better. Not take what WoW WAS and do nothing with it.

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

Yet I'm sure if I gave SWTOR a 9/10 because I do like the game I'd be a "Fan Boy"

I meant Star Wars fan boys and EA-hater fan boys.

Just because you don't fall into those categories doesn't mean you can't like the game, nor does it mean your rating means less than mine because I disagree with it.

So if you're a Star Wars fan boy, then yes, your opinion is ####ing worthless. If not, grats you like a mediocre product and you won't be the only one. Doesn't make it any less mediocre as far as I am concerned. Do a quick scan of websites who were not under the NDA and people who slipped out and ignored the NDA. You'll find that my feelings of mediocrity when amazing was expected is pretty universal.

[Regorium]

The encounters in WoW are better than they've EVER been at any point in the game. Unfortunately, they're running up against a wall - which is the skill level of the playerbase. It's hard to make hard mechanics when you know 90% of your playerbase can't do them.

WoW is probably a better game now than it ever has been as well. PvE balance is about as good as it can get. The new raid finder is something interesting to do (and hilarious watching terrible people try and do easy mechanics). The newest dungeons are a blast and filled with amusing lore. Again, the raids are very well tuned, at least in 25 man, and undertuned in 10's to allow more people to access them. They just implemented a new darkmoon faire, which again gives people more stuff to do.

Unfortunately, WoW is just showing its age. People do get bored looking at the same UI and the same abilities after 7 years, regardless of the rest of the game. Even the best classics (like NHL 94 or golden eye) lose players over time.

SWTOR is a great game too. I am very excited for it just to play in a new world, with new rules and new mechanics. I think the low level game is very polished, which will buy them ample time to fix bugs and deal with game-breaking issues. The base of which they do storytelling and lore is also revolutionary - with a focus on story instances (where they can tune solo adventures), while tying it back into the multiplayer world. Because of that, they can add a lot of new story content whenever they want to.

December 15-20 cannot come soon enough.

[GreenLantern]

Blaster any idea on the PvP?

Is there even PvP? Battleground style? Any incentive for open world?

I miss the days of owning dungeons in UO..

I haven't been able to seriously dig into a MMO since DAOC. I am not a huge fan of this new age of MMO's, and I really hope we start to see a shift back to the roots of the industry over time.

You might have the highest numbers of players under the current system, but keep a few things in mind; in 1997 when UO released there wasn't a computer in every household, and definitely not the internet. Also if it wasn't for the earlier games, UO-EQ-DAOC-AC, there wouldn't be the current games. These games facilitated the growth of the industry and opened the door for a juggernaut like WOW to come through.. just as MUDS and other games opened the door for the originals..

[MarchHare]

The encounters in WoW are better than they've EVER been at any point in the game. Unfortunately, they're running up against a wall - which is the skill level of the playerbase. It's hard to make hard mechanics when you know 90% of your playerbase can't do them.

I'm going to have to disagree with this point. Players today are significantly more skilled than they were five or six years ago. Does anyone remember what it was like raiding before we had things like Deadly Boss Mods, Omen, World of Logs, Tankspot video guides, Elitist Jerks theorycrafting forums, and all the other tools currently available to WoW players? I remember raiding Molten Core and Onyxia's Layer back in vanilla before we even had reliable damage meters. Back then, we had no way of knowing if someone was pulling their weight or not, nor could we give people advice on how to improve.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I'm going to have to disagree with this point. Players today are significantly more skilled than they were five or six years ago. Does anyone remember what it was like raiding before we had things like Deadly Boss Mods, Omen, World of Logs, Tankspot video guides, Elitist Jerks theorycrafting forums, and all the other tools currently available to WoW players? I remember raiding Molten Core and Onyxia's Layer back in vanilla before we even had reliable damage meters. Back then, we had no way of knowing if someone was pulling their weight or not, nor could we give people advice on how to improve.

I agree that people are significantly more skilled. However, the rate at which the encounters have gotten more complex and harder has vastly surpassed the rate at which people improve. For example, most heroic modes in Wrath were already outside the reach of the majority of the gaming population. Heroic modes in Cata are absolutely outside the reach of the majority (until massive nerfs).

If they make anything more complex than what we have now (consider that 13 guilds worldwide killed Heroic Ragnaros before the nerf), nobody but the best of the best will ever kill anything.

[MarchHare]

I agree that people are significantly more skilled. However, the rate at which the encounters have gotten more complex and harder has vastly surpassed the rate at which people improve. For example, most heroic modes in Wrath were already outside the reach of the majority of the gaming population. Heroic modes in Cata are absolutely outside the reach of the majority (until massive nerfs).

I think you're looking at classic WoW through rose-coloured glasses. Heroic modes today aren't really any harder than the most difficult bosses were in vanilla. How many guilds killed the original 40-man version of the Four Horsemen in Naxxramas? How many people even saw Sapphiron or Kel'Thuzad at level 60?

I stopped playing WoW shortly into Cata (so I never saw heroic Ragnaros either pre- or post-nerf), but was he really that much harder than the likes of the bosses I mentioned above or the harder Sunwell bosses or C'Thun?

Or more recently, take the heroic version of 10-man Lich King. Prior to the 4.0 patch, only three guilds in the world had killed him without trivializing the encounter by using 25-man gear in a 10-man raid.

[Muffins]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Is there even PvP? Battleground style? Any incentive for open world?

There's PVP in the form of battlegrounds (Huttball sounds/looks awesome), and open world, with planets dedicated to PVP (I think Illium is one of them) where you are fighting for resources used within the game.




On a separate topic, I find it funny that Blizzard is cranking out a bunch of new commercials (only 5 years late on the Chuck Norris jokes) with TOR just around the corner. While i'm sure they wont have a problem keeping their 8+ million Asian subscribers(guessing), they do seem worried about losing the western market.

[MaDMaN_26]

First off - for everyone apparently they have changed their minds and the client used for beta must be uninstalled before the go live client can be installed - they will not be patching to gold - A post/sticky should show up on the swtor forums soon.

That said:

I agree with pretty much everything MarchHare is saying about wow, so I'll leave it at that except for one comment - this is is a "jaw dropping", "Are you mad?" statement by Regorium (at least to me) :

"WoW is probably a better game now than it ever has been..."

I doubt I'll ever understand how you could come to that conclusion... to each their own

Blaster: You have compared TOR to Vanilla WOW a few times. Enough already it is a misleading false statement. It's just not true. Either you were on great drugs when you played vanilla wow or you simply do not have the experience with SWTOR to date to form an accurate opinion. whats the saying : "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Lets see... we have a 100% fully voice acted game with interactive conversations in a RPG-MMO setting. There are multiple companions characters that that you gain as you progress your story. They quest with you and you choose which one you take with you at any given time. Their opinion of you changes based on how you decide to play your toon and treat them. Each class has a engaging and unique story that follows them all the way to level 50 and has a Bio-ware like finally moment. Crafting is done by assigning your companions Jobs while you continue questing, PVP'ing or running flashpoints/instances. There is not only 3 PVP battlegrounds at launch, but one is a sporting event that "the galaxy watches". Not only is it unique it is a freaking blast to play. These "Battlegrounds" can be queued and entered while your questing - no need to go to the city and talk to a "battle master" and stand there for 30 minutes. There is a pure PVP planet on PVE and PVP servers. This PVP planet is always "on" - so unlike wintergrasp it constantly has goals that can be achieved to help your faction and you can go there at any time and participate. Was that in Vanilla too? There is a PVP free-for-all area that's easily the size of any Wow zone you can name. This is an area where imperial and republic players can fight each other and their own faction as individuals or in groups/raids. No one, not even rare spawn vendors that sell ultra rare goods, is safe from being attacked. It is a place where two or more guilds from the same side - imperial for example - can go and have it out to see who's guild is the best PVP guild on the server only to be suddenly swarmed by a third, fourth and fifth imperial or republic guild(s), that are tired of hearing how awesome these other guys are... We have ships, there is a mini game where you fight in space - which while not immersive enough to entertain for hours it is actually quite fun and is a nice break from leveling for an hour whenever you want. Weapons and armor sets can be Transmorgraphyed (sp?) - want to raid looking like a sand person from tatooine? You need to find and earn that outfit but after that go for it.

Please explain to me how that's a "Vanilla WOW clone?" - It's a MMO... It has quests, levels and even some grinding... Did they borrow, even steal outright from the worlds most popular MMO? Yes. They did indeed. Does it work? Yes. It indeed does. But its not "Vanilla wow" and the mechanics they did copy feel like today's Cataclysm WOW not WOW 2004, even then there are slight differences - I.e. No auto attack. Was it not you that said WOW gets a 8-9/10 because the game is easy to pick up and play or get into? The fact that those mechanics are used to make SWTOR just as user friendly makes it a fail wow-clone?

Its funny you say no Star wars fan boys or EA-hater boys but then you tell me to go read up on blogs and websites that broke or ignored the NDA. Hate to break it to you but those guys are haters. Many of them want the game to fail for whatever lame idiot reason they might have... these places/people broke the law and their agreement and 99% of them just wanted to create controversy as it drives traffic to their website. Basing your opinion on their opinions doesn't make your opinion valid. It make your opinion a prime example of the types of opinion you claim are "******* worthless"

I think if there is any concern it should be high level content is not tested as thoroughly as the lower end stuff... people are unsure how long they will be entertained at level 50... that said there is at least 1 raid, and all 15 leveling instances have a "end game" heroic mode at launch, which beats the crap out of vanilla wow. Hell Blizzard is only just now re-purposing their leveling instances for end game. If SWTOR is a little boring at end game, personally I'm fine with that... the end game content will come. In the mean time there are 8 classes with approx 150-200 hours of unique story to play though (per class) and tons PVP options.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

First off - for everyone apparently they have changed their minds and the client used for beta must be uninstalled before the go live client can be installed - they will not be patching to gold - A post/sticky should show up on the swtor forums soon.

That said:

I agree with pretty much everything MarchHare is saying about wow, so I'll leave it at that except for one comment - this is is a "jaw dropping", "Are you mad?" statement by Regorium (at least to me) :
I doubt I'll ever understand how you could come to that conclusion... to each their own

Name a point in time where WoW was objectively better than it is today.

Objectively means that you take all the "nostalgia" out of it, and judge the game purely by mechanics, features and story. EQ was my first MMO, and I remember a lot of absolutely garbage mechanics that were the source of my enjoyment for many years, yet I can still see them for what they are - bad game design. I want you to do the same with WoW.

You mentioned that "nobody cares about the storyline after Arthas" - well that's a subjective opinion. They've done a GREAT job making people care about deathwing - especially if you've done the 1-60 stuff, as well as finished up some of the later zones (like Twilight Highlands). Look at what they've done objectively, and I guarantee you that you cannot find a point in time where WoW is as polished and complete as it is today.

The point about SWTOR not copying the best features in WoW? Here's a couple they really should've copied off the top of my head:
1) Dual spec
2) Dungeon finder
3) A fully customizable/resizable UI
4) Macro/Add-on support
5) A strong /who or /whois command

[MaDMaN_26]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Name a point in time where WoW was objectively better than it is today.

Objectively means that you take all the "nostalgia" out of it, and judge the game purely by mechanics, features and story. EQ was my first MMO, and I remember a lot of absolutely garbage mechanics that were the source of my enjoyment for many years, yet I can still see them for what they are - bad game design. I want you to do the same with WoW.

You mentioned that "nobody cares about the storyline after Arthas" - well that's a subjective opinion. They've done a GREAT job making people care about deathwing - especially if you've done the 1-60 stuff, as well as finished up some of the later zones (like Twilight Highlands). Look at what they've done objectively, and I guarantee you that you cannot find a point in time where WoW is as polished and complete as it is today.

Ya maybe your right and nostalgia is playing a role, rather I know it does. But until this post you had not said "Objectively" and I do not think you can say "Take out all consideration of things that make it fun/interesting and focus purely on logistics..." I enjoyed the Arthus storyline and I raided Nax, Ulduar all the way to Arthus. The game was not broken to me then... the odd bug but it was fun, So I'll name that time as the best WOW had to offer. Cataclysm bored me so much I quit the game for a year. I personally found the deathwing and Cataclysm story lines contrived and if not silly then uninteresting... I mean an entire zone seemed pretty much focused on mocking/honoring the Indiana Jones movies... the NPC's name is even Harrison Jones or something like that, its just dumb... When It comes to mechanics perhaps they are more polished than they have ever been, but then why is it less fun? Sure you can say the game is as best as its ever been if you take out the fact that its gotten stale, old and is no longer as fun... but I hardly think its fair. You have to judge it by more than a defect count and that includes the question "is it interesting"... So only removing "bad game mechanics/design" and yet not infusing it with anything new, interesting or enjoyable means its not the best its ever been. Not for me anyway.

I leveled 6 toons to 85 and I'm still not sure I understand the story line of cataclysm, to be honest most of that leveling was over a year ago and it was boring... Nothing stuck in my mind as whoa - cool - I wonder how that's going to end. No one reads wow quests, Blizz knows it and it shows in the effort they put into it... The underwater zone was especially terrible.

When I came back recently... I did the new Thrall quest line and it seemed like they had put some effort into it so I read it all, listened to it all and it was just so disappointing... bad guys appear, entrap Thrall tearing his soul apart - essentially killing him certainly trying to and the big bad druid, the only one not dazed by some super magic spell casts entangle on their feet to save the day? Then proceeds to stand there listening the guy yammer on about their destruction. Whats that, its his former apprentice!? Wow, surely he must be angry and want to right this wrong... nope... shrugs and teleport's away. umm ok so its my job to right this wrong, fair enough? so what do I need to do? Kill 20 elemental's from hundreds of otherwise neutral/friendly elemental's... and listen to Thrall and his girlfriend moan about ... gah who cares alright so twenty of these elementals... this better get more interesting. But nope it didn't 80-100 elementals later and listening to the former leader of the horde's girlfriend cry about not having babies with him, kill another 20 elemental's... repeating this exact same thing 4 times, watch a wedding. So weak. All I could think is... I'm not doing this with 6 toons. I'd rather get punched in the face by Tyson. I couldn't help but think if this is their idea of story telling, engaging quests and new interesting content my re-sub was a huuuuuge mistake (it was) and based on what I saw SWTOR will destroy them...

Originally Posted by Regorium

The point about SWTOR not copying the best features in WoW? Here's a couple they really should've copied off the top of my head:
1) Dual spec
2) Dungeon finder
3) A fully customizable/resizable UI
4) Macro/Add-on support
5) A strong /who or /whois command

They have stated all of these things will be be added soon, some like Dual Spec and Dungeon finder will be top priorities after launch. Basically from what I have heard all of these are "Top of the list" on their "wall of crazy" as they call it...

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

Blaster: You have compared TOR to Vanilla WOW a few times. Enough already it is a misleading false statement. It's just not true. Either you were on great drugs when you played vanilla wow or you simply do not have the experience with SWTOR to date to form an accurate opinion. whats the saying : "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

It is a common sentiment that I share.

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

Lets see... we have a 100% fully voice acted game with interactive conversations in a RPG-MMO setting.

Cosmetic change, minor change to game play

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

There are multiple companions characters that that you gain as you progress your story. They quest with you and you choose which one you take with you at any given time. Their opinion of you changes based on how you decide to play your toon and treat them.

Which is good, and I like it. But does it affect anything big? Raids you can access? Bosses you can face in raids or instances? If not, why do I care about them or what they think about me?

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

Each class has a engaging and unique story that follows them all the way to level 50 and has a Bio-ware like finally moment.

So it has quests in it? Will it get me my Paladin mount at the end? Will I learn to use Berzerker stance?

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

Crafting is done by assigning your companions Jobs while you continue questing,

A nice change.

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

There is not only 3 PVP battlegrounds at launch, but one is a sporting event that "the galaxy watches". Not only is it unique it is a freaking blast to play. These "Battlegrounds" can be queued and entered while your questing - no need to go to the city and talk to a "battle master" and stand there for 30 minutes.

Again, cosmetic but appreciated. Had they not taken that, it'd be added to the list that's already below.

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

There is a pure PVP planet on PVE and PVP servers. This PVP planet is always "on" - so unlike wintergrasp it constantly has goals that can be achieved to help your faction and you can go there at any time and participate. Was that in Vanilla too?

Sup, Eastern Plaguelands Towers. Or even Southshore. Didn't earn you anything, but the place was a total warzone. Again. Good on them for adding that in. Appreciated and I am glad it is there.

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

There is a PVP free-for-all area that's easily the size of any Wow zone you can name. This is an area where imperial and republic players can fight each other and their own faction as individuals or in groups/raids. No one, not even rare spawn vendors that sell ultra rare goods, is safe from being attacked. It is a place where two or more guilds from the same side - imperial for example - can go and have it out to see who's guild is the best PVP guild on the server only to be suddenly swarmed by a third, fourth and fifth imperial or republic guild(s), that are tired of hearing how awesome these other guys are... We have ships, there is a mini game where you fight in space - which while not immersive enough to entertain for hours it is actually quite fun and is a nice break from leveling for an hour whenever you want. Weapons and armor sets can be Transmorgraphyed (sp?) - want to raid looking like a sand person from tatooine? You need to find and earn that outfit but after that go for it.

Most of these are totally cosmetic and not really relevant to anything. You can PVP against your own side. Amazing. That has no effect on the game play to which I am referring and have always been referring.

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

Please explain to me how that's a "Vanilla WOW clone?" - It's a MMO... It has quests, levels and even some grinding... Did they borrow, even steal outright from the worlds most popular MMO? Yes. They did indeed. Does it work? Yes. It indeed does. But its not "Vanilla wow" and the mechanics they did copy feel like today's Cataclysm WOW not WOW 2004

The list above was pretty good, but it also misses phasing terrain, changing of the quest lines to move away from fetch and grind quests, they simplified the grind and put more focus on end game than mid game (which has a place, but if it is too long it will push WoW players away). It is a Vanilla WoW clone because they had much innovation at their feet and chose to ignore large chunks of it with nothing that really compares to it in its place. If I have the choice between a dungeon finder and hearing Anthony Daniels, I will take the former.

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

even then there are slight differences - I.e. No auto attack. Was it not you that said WOW gets a 8-9/10 because the game is easy to pick up and play or get into? The fact that those mechanics are used to make SWTOR just as user friendly makes it a fail wow-clone?

I never said that ToR didn't do these things. I do think WoW will be considered easier to play and get rolling in over ToR. Not a big deal for anyone with huge MMO experience, but a 12 or 13 year old?

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

Its funny you say no Star wars fan boys or EA-hater boys but then you tell me to go read up on blogs and websites that broke or ignored the NDA. Hate to break it to you but those guys are haters. Many of them want the game to fail for whatever lame idiot reason they might have... these places/people broke the law and their agreement and 99% of them just wanted to create controversy as it drives traffic to their website. Basing your opinion on their opinions doesn't make your opinion valid. It make your opinion a prime example of the types of opinion you claim are "******* worthless"

I have yet to read a single review that was either overly damning or overly praising. All of the ones I've read share the same "It's good when I expected great" opinion that I have.

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

I think if there is any concern it should be high level content is not tested as thoroughly as the lower end stuff... people are unsure how long they will be entertained at level 50... that said there is at least 1 raid, and all 15 leveling instances have a "end game" heroic mode at launch, which beats the crap out of vanilla wow. Hell Blizzard is only just now re-purposing their leveling instances for end game. If SWTOR is a little boring at end game, personally I'm fine with that... the end game content will come. In the mean time there are 8 classes with approx 150-200 hours of unique story to play though (per class) and tons PVP options.

Oh I have many MANY concerns with end-game content. The fact that apparently there's barely any and none of it is being thoroughly tested is a huge worry. Probably my biggest.

This being said, you seem under the impression that I hate this game. I don't. I think that it was hyped to be better, the money spent was to make it better. I am disappointed it is not amazing. I am disappointed it will likely lose GOTY to Skyrim. I expected more.

I expected a 60oz steak and I'm only getting 40oz.

[Otto-matic]

The only real MMORPG I have played in depth was Guild Wars, I love the star wars universe but i'm on the fence about buying this. I bought ST:Online when it first came out and well it was probably a huge disappointment for me.

[MaDMaN_26]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

The only real MMORPG I have played in depth was Guild Wars, I love the star wars universe but i'm on the fence about buying this. I bought ST:Online when it first came out and well it was probably a huge disappointment for me.

Well that was a terrible terrible game, I don't anyone here will argue that. Horrible game. So disappointing.

[MaDMaN_26]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

The list above was pretty good, but it also misses phasing terrain, changing of the quest lines to move away from fetch and grind quests, they simplified the grind and put more focus on end game than mid game (which has a place, but if it is too long it will push WoW players away). It is a Vanilla WoW clone because they had much innovation at their feet and chose to ignore large chunks of it with nothing that really compares to it in its place. If I have the choice between a dungeon finder and hearing Anthony Daniels, I will take the former.

They do "phase", you know that right? When a certain amount of players are on a map they spawn a new instance of it automatically, players can then switch between them if they simply want to or if they need to in order to group up. The general chat is shared. Basically if it’s busy you will not be fighting for spawning quest mobs in solo quest areas... not much anyway. The instancing should take care of that. PVP zones like Ilum will not be phased - they said there is a limit but it’s unrealistic we would ever hit it as a player base.

Ya there are a few fetch and gather quests... But they do not dominate everything you do while questing and at least the voice acting and story makes you care a little more about why you’re doing it. Often they give you a choice… a way to interact that changes the feel of it. e.g. One quest has a guy asking you to find dead soldier bodies, plant communicators on them that are rigged with explosives as a trap, after accepting the quest to put 10 com links on 10 dead soldiers you are presented with a alternative option to potentially reduce possible civilian casualties. How you choose to complete that quest has a very different result when you turn it in (I have done it both ways) given this was not a class story quest it is often that many of what would normally be a “go do this ten times and return to me” quest in wow has a RPG element that makes it different, interesting. I don't recall a single class story line quest being a fetch and gather... that’s probably not because there was not one to find but rather I didn't notice because the story was great... So in fact the one thing that makes it not one of “those” MMO's is the voice acting, the unique to your class story line and the interactive nature of the questing. If you care at all about your character… if you are engaged, like the typical RPG player is, in the story then you absolutely do give a crap what you companions think of you… maybe you want them to hate you or you want to pursue a love interest… I don’t care how you care but for most people it matters, it makes it a more immersive and interesting experience. Companions that interact with you… love or hate you and speak up while your talking to quest givers makes all of that interesting and a unique MMO experience... all of this you summarily dismiss as "cosmetic"

Three Unique PVP experiences – BG’s, Illum and a free for all, with grouping allowed – cosmetic… no impact on gameplay? Also the bonus effect your faction get for owning the objective in Illum are galaxy wide. Unlike wow were those bonuses were limited to an expansion area or just a zone, every player will have a reason to go there and help.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

This being said, you seem under the impression that I hate this game. I don't. I think that it was hyped to be better, the money spent was to make it better. I am disappointed it is not amazing. I am disappointed it will likely lose GOTY to Skyrim. I expected more.
I expected a 60oz steak and I'm only getting 40oz.

Firstly – big steaks.
Secondly how would I get the impression you, I never said hate, but dislike this game... hmm let’s take a look at some of what you've said... as far back as March this year, when all there was to go on was a few screen shots and an angry ex-employee's rants... even the build I tested in October was extremely old – June I think. But I digress… lets recap.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Check the SW:TOR thread to see why that game'll be lucky to still have servers online after 18 months.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

So has anyone else almost lost all hope for this game being any good? It seems like every month there's another article talking about this game and all its flaws.
The most recent being a review that compared it to WoW in 2004 with the only difference being the voice acting. Now one of the game's head designers has come out and said that only fools deviate from what WoW has done.

CaramonLS: Hopefully there is a little more variety / depth coming up.
Blaster86: Not likely.
CaramonLS: Errr is that speculation or fact?
Blaster86: Fact if you mean when we get the full version. Speculation as far xpacs go.

CaramonLS: Is it going to be worth getting? I haven't played yet.
Blaster86: All signs point to no. Vanilla WoW clone that does not take advantage of any innovation that Blizzard has made to help remove the feeling of needless grinding, such as gimmick quests (fly that rocket, boy!) and area phasing.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Warcraft is still just as terrible, even when you add lightsabres.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

will it hold my attention after the 3 months? Only if the end game content isn't as bleak as it is expected to be. If it is, I'm out just like I was with WoW when the Cata end-game was uninteresting.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

It has all the crippling flaws of Vanilla WoW.How many people will walk right back over to WoW after getting griefed for two hours while waiting for one spawn for a quest. Players from Vanilla WoW will want nothing to do with that again, people that started after won't have the patience.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

It is WoW in space. That's not nay saying, that's fact saying. That doesn't make it terrible. Vanilla WoW was and is playable, but the fact they have all this ground work WoW has laid and they opted to ignore all of it and start from the same place WoW did.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

That's the problem. They didn't copy WoW. They didn't copy Cataclysm. They copied a 5 year old game. Vanilla WoW.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

It's not a WoW model. It's WoW. Vanilla WoW to boot. Just terrible decisions all around. I hope I am wrong, but this game is going to kill Bioware.

You can’t spew all that out then announce “See you at launch!” and truly wonder why I think you hate/dislike the game… if you were not a member of the boards since 04’ and have a reputation I’d swear you were just trolling the thread. I’m not 100% convinced your not.
If you truly are “looking forward” to the game, plan to play it and yet all you can do is focus on what will in all likely hood become your own self-fulfilling prophecy of “Its full of suck!!”… then I feel for you, It must suck not being able to see the bright side.

[MaDMaN_26]

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

First off - for everyone apparently they have changed their minds and the client used for beta must be uninstalled before the go live client can be installed - they will not be patching to gold - A post/sticky should show up on the swtor forums soon.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=714124

If you participated in our Game Testing Program before November 25th, we recommend that you uninstall the game testing client (refer to instructions below) and then download and install the launch game client.

To verify that you have the launch version installed, you can check for the "assets_swtor_main" version file in the following location on your computer: \Program Files (x86)\EA\BioWare\Star Wars – The Old Republic (assuming default installation). If you have that file present, you do not need to reinstall the game client.

[nik-]

So us in the last beta weekend are in the clear to not uninstall then? ... I forget the dates on the last beta weekend.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

How many guilds killed the original 40-man version of the Four Horsemen in Naxxramas? How many people even saw Sapphiron or Kel'Thuzad at level 60?

I stopped playing WoW shortly into Cata (so I never saw heroic Ragnaros either pre- or post-nerf), but was he really that much harder than the likes of the bosses I mentioned above or the harder Sunwell bosses or C'Thun?

This post brings back some nightmares. I was the guild raid leader for our "progression" raiding, as we called it (we had 2 raid groups). I was leading for our first kills on Ony, Rag, Nef and C'Thun. I did some raid leading after that, but trying to lead 40 cats through that was driving me nuts.

I have seen and killed (at level) every WoW boss up to Wrath. I have killed Arthas on 10, but not 25. I stopped playing after that. "Hard Modes" and the focus on them was killing the game for me. I've always felt that I could beat the boss just fine, I didn't need to prove I could do it with one hand tied behind my back while jumping up and down.

I've kept in touch with my guildemates (We've been through a lot together....) and several are planning to move to TOR just for "something new" at least. None want to raid (and one used to be a member of EJ, even...) as nearly hardcore as they did.

I guess this is a long way of saying "stupidhard isn't good." I can appreciate the existence of hard modes (Gotta give those crazy uberelite guilds something to do with their time). But I'm not interested in them, and they are not a meter stick by with which I measure a game.

Originally Posted by Blaster

I do think WoW will be considered easier to play and get rolling in over ToR. Not a big deal for anyone with huge MMO experience, but a 12 or 13 year old?

I don't consider it a bad thing that this game that doesn't have 12-13 year olds running around it. But I think that you are underestimating the average 12-13 year old, sadly.

I may have mentioned it before, but I think it more likely that TOR would have younger, newer players in it than WoW. Not many 12-13yo's have the startup cash required for WoW these days. When they release the Panda Expansion, the startup cost (iirc) will be in the neighborhood of $130-150. Without the monthly fee. That's a hefty chunk of change, and something that WoW really has to consider if they are going to keep trying to attract new customers, instead of older ones.

~~~
All that said, I did re-up and check out Cata. I tooled around in it for 3 months, giving it a fair shake. It still couldn't hold my interest anymore. Did I like my experience better than I did Vanilla WoW or TBC? Hellz yes I did. Was it enough to keep me around? Nope. TOR's caught my interest. It may simply be the 'new, shiny' effect. But I'm willing to have a go at it.

[MaDMaN_26]

Originally Posted by nik-

So us in the last beta weekend are in the clear to not uninstall then? ... I forget the dates on the last beta weekend.

Well the last actual beta weekend was Dec 3-4th I think. That said, it was a much smaller group and most if not all of us here were not invinted... the big Beta weekend was the November 25th-28th, that one had 2 million testers and everyone here would have been invited or could have been if they wanted to. If your part of that group I would check the folder for the file they indicate in that post but ya apparently you *should* be ok.

Certainly not a great communication from Bioware - emailing everyone and saying uninstall it. Then hours later posting in the forums, well you don't *have* to uninstall it *if* blah blah blah...

So I am going with the assumption I am ok, as I have the client from the 24th and the file they are asking us to check for.

Do what you will with that... you have lots of time if you wan't to uninstall and re-download it.